Your opinion on drone usage? - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Ongoing wars and conflict resolution, international agreements or lack thereof. Nationhood, secessionist movements, national 'home' government versus internationalist trends and globalisation.

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#14168713
quetzalcoatl wrote:I agree with Ron Paul on very few things, but he's absolutely right about disengaging from foreign military actions, covert or open. Once we are finished with trying to run their countries, they will concentrate on killing each other, which is as it should be.

As a nice bonus we will save a shitload of money.


That certainly pitches well, but when has ignoring problems ever solved a problem?

The simple fact of the matter is that in an increasingly global and interconnected world, ignoring a problem just does not work. Let's take a look at Pakistan. Its debatable about whether or not Pakistan has the ability to smash the Taliban in the NWFP. Certainly, given that the Taliban routinely places bombs across Pakistan, their venture into Swat, their targeting of polio vaccinators, there is certainly a case to be made of the difficulty faced by Pakistan. Perhaps even worse though is the corruption that spreads as the Taliban bribe or otherwise intimidate local officials into turning a blind eye to their drug smuggling and other criminality. It's literally the equivalent of having the mophia take over the American Mid-West while running drugs, weapons, and protection rackets in the rest of the country - not too mention bombing anyone in the rest of the country that begins to organize against them.

Do nothing, eh?

Well, let's add to the complexity a bit by remembering that Pakistan just happens to have nuclear weapons and blood feud with India. Already the daggers are drawn over Kashmere, and the thought of the Taliban getting control of nuclear weapons just might be enough to get India rather fervently involved, which in turn causes Pakistan to reach out to China to balance the region and suddenly we have three nuclear armed rivals ready to use force over the situation.

No worries, do nothing as the problem will solve itself?

Or, perhaps we can acknowledge that drones are merely one part of a larger solution set. The worst of the bunch are indeed targeted and killed by drones. They know that there is a consequence to their actions. In the mean time, we look at issues like cutting the criminal financing, extending local governance and police forces into these regions (a painstakingly slow process), establishing justice and rule of law in the regions, etc.

It's easy to quit, but we should bear in mind that quitting has consequences. A reminder made all the more paramount in this case based on our 'quitting' the same region after the Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan. That certainly seemed to turn out well for us, eh?
#14168806
stubbornone wrote:
That certainly pitches well, but when has ignoring problems ever solved a problem?

The simple fact of the matter is that in an increasingly global and interconnected world, ignoring a problem just does not work...


And who is this a problem for?

Not for me, nor for the 99% of Americans who struggle to survive. It is only a problem for delusional empire builders and insane nation builders, who cannot conceive of letting people determine their own fate. If they choose to annihilate each other, that is tragic, but the US is not in loco parentis to Pakistan or anyone else. We have barely the means to govern ourselves, much less national cultures we hardly understand.

The Golden Rule of international relations: If you wish to be left alone, leave others alone.

Half the crap that happens to the US is blowback from previous stupid interventions (remember Mosaddegh?) Time to get off the merry-go-round of stupid.
#14169017
I disagree, quetz. The US has an interest in keeping peace, and war itself will never end. Whether it's the Boer Wars and the Great Game in the 19th century, or nation-building exercises, these wars wil happen and continue to happen so long as people have an interest in other parts of the world.
#14169198
It has always been my position that for anyone to support or oppose war as a general concept rather than evaluate individual conflicts and subsequently formulate an informed an interests-driven position is on the face of it, ridiculous.

Plenty opposed our role in Nam, but then, a broader perspective includes by extension a greater understanding of the issue. The majority of conflicts initiated by the West today, engineered to further and broaden the horizons of neoliberalism and force a disintegration of nation-states which value sovereignty and independence of action I oppose and condemn absolutely in a manner I would not have twenty years ago.
#14169419
quetzalcoatl wrote:
And who is this a problem for?

Not for me, nor for the 99% of Americans who struggle to survive. It is only a problem for delusional empire builders and insane nation builders, who cannot conceive of letting people determine their own fate. If they choose to annihilate each other, that is tragic, but the US is not in loco parentis to Pakistan or anyone else. We have barely the means to govern ourselves, much less national cultures we hardly understand.

The Golden Rule of international relations: If you wish to be left alone, leave others alone.

Half the crap that happens to the US is blowback from previous stupid interventions (remember Mosaddegh?) Time to get off the merry-go-round of stupid.


Well, that certainly briefs well in terms of propaganda, but it doesn't tell us what to do about extremists. After all, 9-11 didn't actually effect 99.99999999% of Americans, but it was the effect of walking away from the very same region you are asking us to ignore.

The simple fact of the matter is that doing nothing is doing 'something' and it too has effects. If the alternative to drones is an appeal to emotion and advice to quit and just hope that things turn out OK? Then we simply do not have a credible alternative.

Calling responsibility 'stupid empire building' doesn't mean that the Taliban will go away.
#14173931
LadyAugustus wrote:Drones kill, they are inhumane and disastrous. The 9/11 wars are illegal and immoral. This is also another holocaust of innocent children, women and men of Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Libya, Egypt, East Africa, Congo, and Kurd.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151531012762150&set=a.399469362149.198677.363611777149&type=1&theater


So do bullets. So do car bombs. So do suicide bombs. So do IED's. So does murder and assassination. So does Heroin addiction. So does corruption which erodes the rule of law spreading gangsterism and wanton criminality. So does the denial of women their basic rights, ala Malala who was shot in the head for ... seeking an education.

So, BTW, does hijacking a plane and flying it into buildings.

But it's using drones to kill these guys, the guys that organize, fund, plan, and ultimately execute these criminal acts that is wrong?

And your solution to this is? Right, so claim that others doing something, anything, are immoral in the face of resistance to pure evil.

Nice to see you tossed in the emotional prejorative term 'Holocaust' as well. Because clearly, people standing up to the Taliban and Al Qaeda are the same thing as Hilter?

What pray tell should we do about the Taliban and what THEY ARE DOING and will clearly continue to do?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_eOThecFRKFQ/S ... ustice.jpg

http://blog.cleveland.com/world_impact/ ... e_Meye.JPG

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/06/ ... 68x286.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_iYHUDnf44gw/T ... 3LH2A1.jpg

90% of the civilians killed in Afghanistan and Pakistan are killed by the Taliban, not by drones. So which one is the Holocaust?
#14230952
Another thread rises from the deep.

Drones and ethics is just the latest in a long history of weapons innovation and ethics. In the middle ages there were those who felt the crossbow was dishonorable and ought be banned. In Japan, gunpowder weapons were banned for some centuries. In the 20th century, WWI German submarines caused moral outraged when ocean liners were sunk.

In all cases, the new technology had to be accepted. Moral opinions changed. The drone is the latest in this history. At present these drones are still remote control. Soon they will be autonomous. That is when combat robots will be killing people with only indirect human overview.

I can understand why many people would be frightened of this. Those autonomous killing machines will be worthy of fear. But that is the way military technology is going.


I also want to comment on the discussion of tribal regions and warfare. Actually the geopolitical situation of universal coverage of world territory by nation states is the historical exception, rather than the norm. Over the last few decades we have been witnessing to reemergence of the norm rather than the collapse of the norm. Tribesmen have always been good fighters and difficult for states to subdue. Like technological change in military affairs, this is just how it is.

Viewing them as thugs, terrorists, or (if we look back to Rome) barbarians is typical of civilized peoples ( no moral judgement intended). However such an outlook undermines understanding what tribal societies are like and how to deal with them. I guess that doesn't matter for the average Joe, but it does for people in government dealing with tribal regions.



I guess the take home message is that many westerners are struggling to come to terms with life in the 21st century.
#14230953
Well the people who saw the crossbow as immoral and wanted it banned were right. The crossbow was the Greatx100 Grandfather of the A-bomb.
Imagine what the world would be like if the crossbow had been outlawed and all future mechanical projectile weapons were banned.
#14230965
jessupjonesjnr87 wrote:Well the people who saw the crossbow as immoral and wanted it banned were right. The crossbow was the Greatx100 Grandfather of the A-bomb.
Imagine what the world would be like if the crossbow had been outlawed and all future mechanical projectile weapons were banned.



Do you mean the feudal order was something worthy of being maintained? You hit on a good point though. The changes in weapon technology do impact on social order. The crossbow was the start of the decline of the European knight and his feudal system. Firearms in Japan threatened the Samurai feudal order. Of course these technologies were part of a boarder economic change, for example the rise in economic importance of the towns and decline of the agricultural economy in late medieval and renaissance Europe, which eventually led to the rise of liberalism.

How with drones, particular the future autonomous weapons systems, affect the current political order?
#14241919
I was opposed to them about a year ago, then I changed my mind.
It's ultimately another weapon. It doesn't matter that the operator
isn't there in person, looking in the eyes, to kill their foes. War is war.

There is a possibility that the Pakistani Taliban would have a foreign
policy that allows Islamist groups to take refuge there & attack other
states, Western and Third World. They'd have an obligation they'd
invoke from the Koran I'm sure.

And my pacifism has felt tested of late, I concede. If not outright
faded away.
#14241960
Drones are better than B-17s except for one thing: they don't pretty girls painted on 'em.

They should have pretty girls, with really nice gams, painted on 'em.
#14241972
And afterwards drop gay rights leaflets in the area.

If the Third World doesn't adopt social liberalism......they're done for.
And deserve to fade away into the history books. If Western states,
previously very officially homophobic, can do it, so can the Third
World states.
#14241979
redcarpet wrote:And afterwards drop gay rights leaflets in the area.

Afghanistan has far more gay rights than the West. What Police Officer in the West has a right to his own Catemite?

Armed Drones as others of have said are not intrinsically wrong. The problem is that they further exacerbate the problem of what might be called off book wars. Unconsidered, ill thought out military campaigns. We then have to endure the hysterical hypocritical outrage when one, yes just one, and yes a solder, not a child, not a woman, not even a civilian gets killed on the streets of London.
#14241983
Ah, a very good point:

Pink ribbons pointing out breast cancer awareness would be very sharp looking on a drone.

I was three years old when I first became aware of FLIR. Papa-san was asked by Texas Instruments to perfect it for them and that he did. What came out of it was a benefit to society world wide and I heartily endorse drones.

The pluses against the minuses are a better ratio than even rubber bullets in my opinion.
#14242929
It's ultimately another weapon.


This. The problem is that the west are blowing up children in other countries for no apparent reason when we are not even at war with them. If the bombs are dropped from a drone or a manned plane hardly matters.
#14243036
The LOIAC apply automatically, formal declarations of war
are not required.

And why declare war on say, Pakistan & Afghanistan, when
their governments have authorised these operations?
#14244477
And why declare war on say, Pakistan & Afghanistan, when
their governments have authorised these operations?


Afghanistan was invaded, occupied and the present regime and system forcefully installed. Therefore what its government authorises is not derived from afghan sovereign interests. Therefore irrelevant example.

Pakistani government doesn't even control the bulk of the waziristan tribal region, and is effectively at war with the self declared islamic emirate of waziristan. You have merely joined them in this endeavour. Another irrelevant example.
#14245435
Igor Antunov wrote:
Afghanistan was invaded, occupied and the present regime and system forcefully installed. Therefore what its government authorises is not derived from afghan sovereign interests. Therefore irrelevant example.


True enough. But there have been some attempts to legitimize the Government through elections. As much cannot be said for the Taliban or any other Afghan regime. The present Afghan government will crumble just as soon as Western powers leave.

Another drone strike today. Got the number two Poo-bah. Couldn't happen to a nicer guy.

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