[Far-Right Sage]

Not to mention that in many of these cases where a woman is stoned for adultery, I don't believe it is always even the motivation behind the execution. I find it highly plausible that a woman could become the subject of nasty gossip and rumors for stepping on a few toes or becoming the envy of other women, or perhaps speaking her mind too freely or opening her mouth too widely about some unrelated subject, and this is the first course of action the male authorities and self-righteously pious societal elders will threaten her with. It's promoted as meeting the highest standards of Islamic jurisprudence but is likely utilized in many areas that have blights and social ills far beyond Islam in a manner not too dissimilar to the execution of "witches" in the Massachusetts Bay Colony and colonial America; as a form of brutal social culling and tool for petty vendettas.

I'm just going to throw my support behind killing all these savages. Abu you realize that members of every ideology have committed barbarism and that some of the people you're arguing with are cheerleaders of genocide. The reason that the overwhelming majority of posters want to see IS destroyed is that their endgame of Islamic radicalism is nauseating theoretically, and terrifying put into practice. The whole ends justifying the means argument doesn't even come into play.

Correct. It's what ISIL/the Islamic State is fighting for, not how they are fighting for it. Helping to publicize their acts of gratuitous violence is effective in the propaganda war and so I support every effort to do so; do not mistake that on my part for any surprise or shock. It doesn't surprise me, it doesn't shock me, it doesn't offend my sensibilities, and I'm not confused or ignorant as to why they are doing the things they're doing. Unlike what the contributor Abu Rashid likely thinks of my position, I don't think of ISIL commanders and officials as some evil drones out of a comic strip serial. I believe they are fighting, killing without hesitation, and boldly risking their lives for something, an ideal which they very much believe to be right and good. That makes them all the more dangerous. It is easy for someone on the far-right and versed in the sort of politics that has been called all manner of devilish things by the establishment bourgeois consensus for decades to understand the mindset and motivations behind an outfit like ISIL.

[abu_rashid]

What society has normalized it, Abu? It's a sin for Christians to do it, it's grounds for divorce in most societies, and it's frowned on in all societies. You are grasping at straws.

In most Western countries it is normalised. Christianity is dead in society, its morals have no bearing on societal norms whatsoever.

Islam promotes violence. Pure and simple.

Do Western societies that have capital punishment also promote violence?

Murdering an adulterer causes more violence and harm than the infidelity of said person.

Enacting capital punishment is not murder. It is a judicial punishment.

The Muslim laws regarding adultery belong with the Inquisition: In the past. Pornography is NOT flashed all over the place. Where do you come up with this bullshit?

I don't know about where you live, but in my country, pornographic images are all over the place, on billboards, on TV etc.

Bullshit. What do you think Sharia law is? Sharia law is in several countries and they are a nasty set of laws, made by people who don't even know what justice means.

Shari'ah law may ONLY be implemented by a Caliphate. Countries like Saudi Arabia are Islamically illegitimate, they have no Islamic basis whatsoever. Saudi Arabia was a British invention and a caricature of Islam, designed to dupe the Muslims into not trying to re-establish the Caliphate. Please read some history.

[Godstud]

In most Western countries it is normalised.

Total crap! It's condemned in any society. Cheating is unacceptable. It causes divorces and it is NOT acceptable behavior. Do you have a source for these statements, or are you just making it up?

Do Western societies that have capital punishment also promote violence?

Most Western societies do NOT have the death penalty. Even then, the countries that do have the death penalty, reserve it only for the most heinous of crimes(i.e. mass murder, serial murderers, etc.).

Enacting capital punishment is not murder. It is a judicial punishment.

It's the same thing. That's why most civilized countries do not have the death penalty, or they only have it for the worst crimes imaginable. Adultery is not the worst crime imaginable. Sure, adultery can cause a family to break up, but that doesn't justify murder by the state(and that's all the death penalty is).
How does the death of the adulterer fix the problem? Can the adulterer make amends? many times people who have a cheating spouse forgive and continue in long-lasting relationships. Death is final, and doesn't allow something like forgiveness. I can see you don't believe in it either.

I don't know about where you live, but in my country, pornographic images are all over the place, on billboards, on TV etc.

Where do you live? Pornography is not allowed on most TV, unless you have pay per view(and even then it's not really PORN), and it is not all over billboards, etc. You must have a very fucked up view of what pornography is, if you see it everywhere. Maybe you're just excessively prudish?

Shari'ah law may ONLY be implemented by a Caliphate.

Is Brunei a Caliphate?

Countries like Saudi Arabia are Islamically illegitimate, they have no Islamic basis whatsoever. Saudi Arabia was a British invention and a caricature of Islam, designed to dupe the Muslims into not trying to re-establish the Caliphate.

Regardless, some of them have Sharia law, even if(in your view), it's illegitimate.

[Rei Murasame]

You don't see it as a crime because you are slaves to your own base desires. As you wish to commit this crime, you also seek to legitimise and normalise it.

You know, it's possible to disapprove of something without calling for that thing to be a capital offence. Going behind someone's back and breaking a promise of intimacy is obviously not a very nice thing to do, but I think that most people in the world would not want the state to have to power to execute someone if they are accused of having done so.

What next? Your friend breaks a pinky-promise and you also stone her to death? It's absurd. If you want revenge so badly, be courageous and take the revenge into your own hands and kill them yourself. But of course, that might be called 'murder', so there is a risk involved!

[abu_rashid]

Total crap! It's condemned in any society. Cheating is unacceptable. It causes divorces and it is NOT acceptable behavior. Do you have a source for these statements, or are you just making it up?

In Western societies it is glorified and encouraged. In film, television, books, music everywhere you can imagine Western society promotes the idea of adultery as an adventurous and normal part of life.

Most Western societies do NOT have the death penalty.

I never said they did, I asked you if Western countries that have the death penalty also promote violence. Why can't you answer this?

Even then, the countries that do have the death penalty, reserve it only for the most heinous of crimes(i.e. mass murder, serial murderers, etc.).

In the US also espionage, treason & drug trafficking. In Belarus, acts of aggression, terrorism, conspiracy to seize power, sabotage & violation of customs of war.

most civilized countries do not have the death penalty,

About half the countries in the world still have it.

Sure, adultery can cause a family to break up, but that doesn't justify murder by the state(and that's all the death penalty is).

This is probably just a reflection of how little value the family has today in Western societies. In Islam, we consider adultery to be a form of treason. It is treason against the family rather than against the state.

How does the death of the adulterer fix the problem?

Islamic laws are about deterrent. The Islamic justice systems seeks to promote a healthy and virtuous society in which people don't feel the urge to commit crimes, and for those who still do, the deterrents should be sufficient to prevent them from it. If you want to go into the obvious failure of Western justice systems, we can start another discussion somewhere else maybe.

Can the adulterer make amends?

No.

Can the traitor or murderer in the US?

Where do you live? Pornography is not allowed on most TV, unless you have pay per view(and even then it's not really PORN), and it is not all over billboards, etc. You must have a very fucked up view of what pornography is, if you see it everywhere. Maybe you're just excessively prudish?

Australia is perhaps one of the more liberal societies in this regard. Yes we sometimes have stuff on TV that would be considered pornography in any definition of the word. As for prudish.. I lived 25~ years of my life as a non-Muslim, I've seen it all, so I think I'm pretty sure what pornography is and isn't.

Is Brunei a Caliphate?

No. The last Caliphate was abolished in 1924.

Regardless, some of them have Sharia law, even if(in your view), it's illegitimate.

No they do not. They implement some cherry picked components of Shari'ah law and mix it with other laws. It's a joke. No Muslim who understands what Shari'ah is about would consider it legitimate.

[Godstud]

In Western societies it is glorified and encouraged. In film, television, books, music everywhere you can imagine Western society promotes the idea of adultery as an adventurous and normal part of life.

Keep lying to yourself. You're clueless about Western society if that's what you think.

I asked you if Western countries that have the death penalty also promote violence.

Yes. That's why it's so popular in Muslim countries. Islam is the religion of violence. That's why the punishments are so vile and primitive.

In the US also espionage, treason & drug trafficking.

Prove it. You're making unsupported accusations that are really just bold-faced lies. Name the last person who was executed in the US for treason, espionage and drug trafficking. Odds are, that you can't.

About half the countries in the world still have it.

Yes, most of the backwards shithole countries have it. How many Western countries have it? And what are the crimes that you need to do, to get executed. That's something you also fail to understand.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_cap ... by_country

This is probably just a reflection of how little value the family has today in Western societies.

What horseshit. You really are clueless, aren't you? Family has jsut as much value as anywhere else. You are just trying to make up a lot of bullshit to support your vile Islamic religion.

In Islam, we consider adultery to be a form of treason. It is treason against the family rather than against the state.

So because dad or mom makes a mistake you are going to kill them? That's considered justice in your fucked up world of Islam?

Islamic laws are about deterrent.

It's been proven that the death penalty is not a deterrent. Fact.

If you want to go into the obvious failure of Western justice systems, we can start another discussion somewhere else maybe.

It seems to me that Islamic laws and justice systems are systems involving a fuckload more injustice than any Western country.

Can the traitor or murderer in the US?

A murderer cannot make amends because his victim is DEAD. A person who commits adultery, is not MURDERING his/her spouse. What an idiotic comparison. Show me the last traitor executed in the US, too. you sure make a lot of accusations without any sources.

I lived 25~ years of my life as a non-Muslim, I've seen it all, so I think I'm pretty sure what pornography is and isn't.

I don't think you do. Your interpretation of pornography probably isn't supported by the definition.

No. The last Caliphate was abolished in 1924.

So Brunei, by having Sharia law, makes your statement about there having to be a caliphate, false.

No Muslim who understands what Shari'ah is about would consider it legitimate.

And yet they do.

I know your type, Abu_rashid. You sit in Australia and complain about the system and the culture, while enjoying the very religious freedoms that would be denied to you in a country with the shitty laws your proclaim are good for everyone. Move to Iran, or another of those horrid countries where you don't have choices, if that is what appeals to you. You talk the talk, but don't walk the walk.

[abu_rashid]

Keep lying to yourself. You're clueless about Western society if that's what you think.

Having grown up as a Westerner, in a Western society, I think I have a pretty good idea. Perhaps you come from the Bible belt of the US or something, and so have a skewed understanding of Western society. I've grown up in a typical urban society in a fairly average Western country.

Yes. That's why it's so popular in Muslim countries. Islam is the religion of violence. That's why the punishments are so vile and primitive.

Can't you just admit you won't answer my question? Because you know it will reflect the same on some Western countries.

Prove it. You're making unsupported accusations that are really just bold-faced lies. Name the last person who was executed in the US for treason, espionage and drug trafficking. Odds are, that you can't.

Federal law provides the death penalty for many homicide-related crimes; espionage; treason; drug trafficking.[86][87] 32 of the 50 US states still exercise the death penalty.

(Source)

:eh: What horseshit. You really are clueless, aren't you? Family has jsut as much value as anywhere else. You are just trying to make up a lot of bullshit to support your vile Islamic religion.

In Western societies family values have been seriously eroded. Even some Westerners themselves recognise this, and have formed organisations and political parties in order to restore them.

It's been proven that the death penalty is not a deterrent. Fact.

In societies that send mixed messages, agreed. This follows on from my points above that Western societies promote and encourage all sorts of immoral things. So in the US for instance, crime is often glorified in television and music, and then people are punished for it, and people are dumbfounded as to why the punishments don't deter the crime. A large part of Islamic crime prevention is establishing virtue and preventing vice. The punishments then just provide a deterrent for those who fall through the cracks.

A murderer cannot make amends because his victim is DEAD.

How about treason? and the other non-fatal crimes I mentioned?

I don't think you do. Your interpretation of pornography probably isn't supported by the definition.

Last Friday night I was flicking through the free to air channels and all of a sudden there were two fully naked women on my screen completely entwined with one another... I think most people would consider that pretty pornographic.

So Brunei, by having Sharia law, makes your statement about there having to be a caliphate, false.

Brunei does not have Shari'ah law. You simply don't know what Shari'ah law is. Shari'ah law is a complete state system. According to Shari'ah law, the head of state must be a Caliph and the system he implements must be a Caliphate. This isn't my opinion, this is the definition of what Shari'ah law is. Now the media of course tell us Shari'ah law simply means stoning adulterers and cutting the hands of thieves, but this is false. Shari'ah is a comprehensive system that involves not just criminal punishment but ruling structure, economics and all other aspects of human life.

And yet they do.

By your definition North Korea would be a democracy.

I know your type, Abu_rashid. You sit in Australia and complain about the system and the culture, while enjoying the very religious freedoms that would be denied to you in a country with the shitty laws your proclaim are good for everyone. Move to Iran, or another of those horrid countries where you don't have choices, if that is what appeals to you. You talk the talk, but don't walk the walk.

Why would I move to Iran? What relationship do I have to Iran?

[Godstud]

Can't you just admit you won't answer my question? Because you know it will reflect the same on some Western countries.

most Western countries do not have the death penalty.

Yes, the US has the death penalty for some crimes that are murder, but you still won't answer my question as to when the last time a person accused of treason, was executed. You purposefully evade that.

That you happened to see some nudity on TV, doesn't necessarily make it porn, abu.

Pornography
printed or visual material containing the explicit description or display of sexual organs or activity, intended to stimulate erotic rather than aesthetic or emotional feelings.

Last Friday night I was flicking through the free to air channels and all of a sudden there were two fully naked women on my screen completely entwined with one another... I think most people would consider that pretty pornographic.

Some people consider nudity, in some venues, to be artistic, and NOT pornographic. Perhaps it's your own skewed perspective that makes it pornographic. A lot of nudity in television is considered an artistic expression, but I can understand you not understanding that, as you are a bit of a prude.

In Western societies family values have been seriously eroded.

True, but many Westerners still hold family values. You are making an idiotic generalization.

The punishments then just provide a deterrent for those who fall through the cracks.

Again, this provides no deterrent and doesn't help society in ANY way. how does executing a father for adultery help the wife, or children? Cmon... tell me. Don't evade the question.

How about treason? and the other non-fatal crimes I mentioned?

When was the last time these were used? I will help you.
Herbert Hans Haupt, German-born naturalized U.S. citizen, was convicted of treason in 1942 and executed after being named as a German spy by fellow German spies defecting to the United States.

Brunei does not have Shari'ah law.

I beg to differ.
The Sultan of Brunei said his country would soon be ruled by a set of strict Islamic criminal laws, making Brunei the first Southeast Asian country to institute Sharia Law at a national level.
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/201 ... sharia-law

By your definition North Korea would be a democracy.

Don't be evasive and idiotic.

Why would I move to Iran? What relationship do I have to Iran?

Well why don't you go somewhere where Western influence won't affect you. You are quite obviously not able to thoroughly enjoy those freedoms that would be denied you in a Muslim country. This is quite common. Talk the talk but won't walk the walk.

[abu_rashid]

Yes, the US has the death penalty for some crimes that are murder,

Right, and your claim was Islam is violent because it has the death penalty. So can you just answer whether this also means the US is violent?

but you still won't answer my question as to when the last time a person accused of treason, was executed. You purposefully evade that.

It's irrelevant. It is law and that's all I stated.

That you happened to see some nudity on TV, doesn't necessarily make it porn, abu.
Some people consider nudity, in some venues, to be artistic, and NOT pornographic. Perhaps it's your own skewed perspective that makes it pornographic. A lot of nudity in television is considered an artistic expression, but I can understand you not understanding that, as you are a bit of a prude.

It was more than just nudity, it was sexual acts. And nudity can also be pornographic anyway.

True, but many Westerners still hold family values. You are making an idiotic generalization.

Yes it's a generalisation, but a pretty accurate one.

Again, this provides no deterrent and doesn't help society in ANY way. how does executing a father for adultery help the wife, or children? Cmon... tell me. Don't evade the question.

How does executing a father help the wife or children if he's a murderer or commits treason? Your question has no relevance to this discussion.

I beg to differ.

You may beg to differ all you like, but since you don't even seem to realise what Shari'ah is, your differing opinion means little.

The Sultan of Brunei said his country would soon be ruled by a set of strict Islamic criminal laws, making Brunei the first Southeast Asian country to institute Sharia Law at a national level.
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/201 ... sharia-law

I'm well aware of the "sultan"'s proclamation, and of the misuse of the term Shari'ah in Western media.

:roll: Don't be evasive and idiotic.

Well their name is after all the Democratic People's Republic of Korea. So if we're just going to judge things based on appearances, labels and titles, completely neglecting to examine their realities, then yes North Korea is a Democracy, says so right in their title.

Well why don't you go somewhere where Western influence won't affect you.

Someone has to stay here and try and get through to you godless wretches.

You are quite obviously not able to thoroughly enjoy those freedoms that would be denied you in a Muslim country.

I enjoy them just fine.

This is quite common. Talk the talk but won't walk the walk.

Well since no Caliphate has existed since 1924, unless you're going to inform me time travel has been invented, then there's no way for me to go and live under Shari'ah. when it's re-established, I'll be one of the first to head there, for sure.

[wat0n]

I wonder, as someone who grew up as a Westerner, what made you to convert to Islam? If you read the Qu'ran before doing so, and I suspect you did, why did you do that?

[abu_rashid]

wat0n,

Islam provides a pure, clean, hopeful way of life, whilst Western ideology provides nothing but a downhill spiral towards decadence and decay. The choice is pretty easy actually, for anyone who objectively examines Islam. I intend to write up a much more elaborate explanation of my journey to Islam in the religion section in the not too distant future, but that's the main gist of it.

Perhaps you can participate when I do so, and explain why you think reading the Qur'an would lead one not to embrace Islam, as that seems to be the implication of your question.

[Ideational Ontarian]

Islam provides a pure, clean, hopeful way of life, whilst Western ideology provides nothing but a downhill spiral towards decadence and decay.

What decay?

[Drlee]

Islam provides a pure, clean, hopeful way of life, whilst Western ideology provides nothing but a downhill spiral towards decadence and decay. The choice is pretty easy actually, for anyone who objectively examines Islam.

Yes the West is in decay. He have fallen to the despicable practice of allowing everyone to vote. Islam is to enlightened to allow that under the Caliphate. With the Caliph, someone for example like Osama Bin Laden, in charge there is really no need to vote. I guess you have dealt with libertarians in a more effective way than we have. In our depravity we have come to see women as equals with men. We allow people to marry whomever they choose. You will not have that option but then all you are risking is the bow string if your hormones get the better of you. You Islamic guys do have hormones, don't you? You must growing all of those beards and stuff. I think it is cool to want all men to look like Wookies. We respect personal choices with regard to religion. You know. Like allowing you to convert to Islam. In the enlightened Islamic countries they realize that Allah wants anyone who would convert to Christianity beheaded. I am a bit uncertain how one can tell if a woman is pure and clean since she is required to wear a bee keepers outfit all of the time. In the desert heat I can only imagine it gets pretty funky in there. Whipping off that Burka when she gets home must offer a very holy aroma. You would know better than I. But then it occurs to me that if you do know you must be impaled for inchastity. We decayed Americans are particularly bad among the wretched Westerners. We have a knack for disrupting your Friday-go-to-meetin' festivities with hellfire missiles. Did it ever occur to you how funny it is that they are call hellfire missiles? If you giggle you must be sewn into a bag and peppered. I would not recommend any giggling at all. And for Allah's sake don't Google anything either. You may see some pornography and would have to be stoned. And I don't mean in a good way either. Googling and Giggling are right out. Did I mention the pork thing? We awful Westerners often eat pigs. (food pigs not your mom got you a date pigs.) They are not halal as I am given to know. I can eat them all I want but if you eat one you must be broken on a wheel. You know that picture of Halle Berry in the bikini you had on your dorm room wall? You should take it down or you will be taken hence and trodden on by elephants. Whatever you do don't pluck your eyebrows. I am not shitting you on this. If you do you must be broken on a wheel. (Or hanged if you are in a town that is so complete in its conversion to Islam that it has gone back to a time before the wheel.) Do not wear yellow or lie on your back and cross your legs. That will get you burned at the stake.

Well. I am becoming so desirous of attaining your enlightenment that I feel I ought not go on. I can't wait until Islam brings its own special enlightenment to all of the world. I find uni-brows sexy as hell.

[Igor Antunov]

To kill the scum who kidnap and rape children?

No, to create even more. This is your work, own it.

[wat0n]

wat0n,

Islam provides a pure, clean, hopeful way of life, whilst Western ideology provides nothing but a downhill spiral towards decadence and decay. The choice is pretty easy actually, for anyone who objectively examines Islam. I intend to write up a much more elaborate explanation of my journey to Islam in the religion section in the not too distant future, but that's the main gist of it.

Perhaps you can participate when I do so, and explain why you think reading the Qur'an would lead one not to embrace Islam, as that seems to be the implication of your question.

Actually, while I do believe reading the Qu'ran doesn't necessarily lead you to converting to Islam, my question was more geared as to why did you read it in the first place.

[abu_rashid]

I wanted to know what Islam taught.

I studied various religious and non-religious belief systems and ideologies in my early 20's, to see if any had something worth adopting. I found Islam to be the only one with anything to offer.

It was the only one with a complete system for humanity to live by, and a world view that will lead to success and victory.

[mikema63]

and a world view that will lead to success and victory.

As defined of course by Islam. What is success here? What is victory? Forcing everyone else into Islam? Why?

The decay I imagine your referring to is defined by Islam as well. You've adopted a system that creates problems for it to solve by your being completely obedient to the code of Islam. Outside of Islam these problems you think it solves simply don't exist or they are dealt with by other systems and Islam isn't the one true solution.

Historically speaking I would say Islam creates many more issues than it ever solves, perhaps one day Islam will have a reformation and moderate like Christianity did. As it stands Islam is as bad if not worse than the medieval Church.

[Heisenberg]

The Reformation certainly didn't moderate Christianity - it brought us puritan Calvinism and sowed the seeds of Biblical literalism and fundamentalism. If anything, the Salafists are closer to Luther and Calvin than they are to mediaeval Catholicism.

[wat0n]

I wanted to know what Islam taught.

I studied various religious and non-religious belief systems and ideologies in my early 20's, to see if any had something worth adopting. I found Islam to be the only one with anything to offer.

It was the only one with a complete system for humanity to live by, and a world view that will lead to success and victory.

Interesting, I'll wait for your thread on the Religion subforum as I'd like to know how did you arrive to that conclusion.

[Stormsmith]

On: "Should we fight ISIS?"

Some wars are justified, some aren't. This is as clear a case of "jus ad bellum" as I've ever known. ISIS has left us no choice. The enormity of their actions necessarily invokes the moral imperative.


Abu, all your complaints are predicated on re-defining terms to suit this vicious treatment of people. I suspect you consider billboards featuring ladies with their hair exposed to be pornographic. This isn't an argument that supports violence, its a philosophy 100 failure of begging the question.

Before ISIS judges others, or worse, condemns others without due cause they should look at their own actions.

ISIS is fighting behind the veil of Islam. Islam in no way, shape, or form supports murders.

An eye for an eye means let the punishment fit the crime, not murder someone for something that simply is not a mortal sin.