[abu_rashid]

Your error seems to be in not realising I don't believe air strikes and/or ground troops will win this one.

The change to control Iraq has long gone. That ship sailed when the original invasion failed, hmm now I'm getting a little too poetic for my own liking.

In short, it would take a helluva lot more than even boots on the ground to stop this. Can you imagine Falluja but about 1000 times bigger? That's what it will be like.

[mikema63]

So your saying we should just nuke them?

Certainly seems like overkill, but we wont actually let ISIS do whatever it likes.

[KlassWar]

There's no way the world is going to let ISIS survive, the only question is how long their destruction's gonna take and how much it's gonna hurt. The total, humiliating, unsalvageable defeat of Al-Baghdadi's pseudo-caliphate is inescapable.

If the Sunnis align with the Salafists wholesale, there simply will be few Sunnis in Iraq when everything is said and done. I hope they'll see reason and defect from the Salafites as soon as they start losing, but if they don't, the blame's on them. Islamists are right wingers, and right wingers' lives are always inherently worthless. Their survival is no benefit, their destruction is no loss. Simple as that.

Right wingers should be suffered to live when they are not posing any trouble and eradicating them like the vermin they are would be more trouble than it's worth. As soon as right wingers start making any sort of trouble at all, the utilitarian calculus screams for machete season.

[abu_rashid]

mikema63,

So your saying we should just nuke them? :?:

If they are going to be stopped, yes it will probably be the only way.

KlassWar,

There's no way the world is going to let ISIS survive, the only question is how long their destruction's gonna take and how much it's gonna hurt. The total, humiliating, unsalvageable defeat of Al-Baghdadi's pseudo-caliphate is inescapable.

Just like there was no way they were going to let the Talibaan survive? And they now rule probably more of Afghanistan (excluding Kabul) than they did prior to the US invasion. And the US is now negotiating prisoner exchanges with them?

You're clearly not a very analytically minded person are you KlassWar? And obviously don't take historical precedent into account.

If the Sunnis align with the Salafists wholesale, there simply will be few Sunnis in Iraq when everything is said and done. I hope they'll see reason and defect from the Salafites as soon as they start losing, but if they don't, the blame's on them.

I know that's what you'd like, but I don't think so. You seem to have faith in the Sykes-Picot borders, and to believe the Muslims are simply going to remain within them. Muslims from all over the region are going to flock to this, it will not be restricted to Iraqi Muslims.. And the idea it's all about Salafists is just delusional.

Islamists are right wingers,

Not really. Islamic political divisions don't really fit into the usual political spectrum so easily. For instance whenever I take a test to see where I am, I always come up just left of centre.

and right wingers' lives are always inherently worthless. Their survival is no benefit, their destruction is no loss. Simple as that.

Nobody's life is worthless. That's a pretty worthless statement to make.

Right wingers should be suffered to live when they are not posing any trouble and eradicating them like the vermin they are would be more trouble than it's worth. As soon as right wingers start making any sort of trouble at all, the utilitarian calculus screams for machete season.

You're just as much a nutjob as Rei is, just from the other side of the spectrum.

[KlassWar]

Bullshit and half-truths, as usual.

I know that's what you'd like, but I don't think so. You seem to have faith in the Sykes-Picot borders, and to believe the Muslims are simply going to remain within them. Muslims from all over the region are going to flock to this, it will not be restricted to Iraqi Muslims.. And the idea it's all about Salafists is just delusional.

How can it not be about Salafists? ISIS is a salafist, takfiri militia. That's plain for all to see. Its basis of support and only meaningful recruiting demographic is not Muslims generally, but Sunni chauvinists, most of them Arab Wahhabites or Salafites from all over. In fact their fundamentalism and sectarianism have managed to force Shiites and secular or moderate Sunnis into existential opposition... And they're waging a war of aggression against their fellow Sunnis, the Kurds.

Not really. Islamic political divisions don't really fit into the usual political spectrum so easily. For instance whenever I take a test to see where I am, I always come up just left of centre.

You actually converted to Islam out of social conservatism. Whatever test places you left of center is a bullshit test.

Nobody's life is worthless. That's a pretty worthless statement to make.

A half-truth. Sure, nobody's life is totally worthless... But counterrevolutionaries' lives might as well be. Most people have some skills, some knowledge, a role in their communities and all that crap. Human capital is worth something, after all . The thing is, counterrevolutionaries are also disruptive, toxic elements. They play regressive roles in their communities, form the basis of social support of reactionary regimes and tend to struggle against and undermine revolutionaries at any turn.

Theyr'e literally more trouble than they're worth, so their overall social worth might as well be negative.

[Rei Murasame]

For instance whenever I take a test to see where I am, I always come up just left of centre.

I took some political spectrum tests too, I got this set of results:

Multiple political tests taken by me. Click image for larger size.

You'll notice that my result on the 3D test is "Left-Fascist" (which is correctly charting me), even though the four coloured political compass test places me as 'left of centre' (because that particular test is unable to chart me properly). The left wing of fascism is the left hand side of a far right movement, and as such it is still to the far right of everything on this forum.

That four coloured political compass test is basically a perpetual ongoing joke.

[abu_rashid]

How can it not be about Salafists? ISIS is a salafist, takfiri militia. That's plain for all to see. Its basis of support and only meaningful recruiting demographic is not Muslims generally, but Sunni chauvinists, most of them Arab Wahhabites or Salafites from all over.

I don't think they began as Salafists, I think they adopted Salafist ideology because it's very puritan and probably helped them to draw in battle hardened warriors who had fought in Afghanistan. Most of those who join them are probably not necessarily Salafist, but may become so after joining them, yes. But even the most "hard core" of Salafist leaders have rejected them anyway, so I'm not so sure they'll stick with Salafist ideology.

In fact their fundamentalism and sectarianism have managed to force Shiites and secular or moderate Sunnis into existential opposition...

It has? Where? If anything it's driven apart the existing relationship between the mainstream (I really don't care for the term Sunni) Muslims of Iraq and the Shi'a. They were previously allied and this whole upheaval has brought that to an end. As I said you're not very astute or analytical when it comes to political issues are you?

And they're waging a war of aggression against their fellow Sunnis, the Kurds.

There's plenty of Kurds who are members of IS, so this one falls flat on its face. IS are waging war against secularist and Shi'a regimes, not against Kurds. The Kurdish regions just happen to have some of the most secular governments.

You actually converted to Islam out of social conservatism. Whatever test places you left of center is a bullshit test.

I did? Where on earth did you get this nonsense from? If there's one phrase you could use to describe me in my pre-Islamic days, it certainly wouldn't have been socially conservative. Neermind though, it's about as spot on as the rest of your analyses.

A half-truth. Sure, nobody's life is totally worthless... But counterrevolutionaries' lives might as well be.

This is just nonsensical dogma.

[Rei Murasame]

Abu Rashid, would you consider yourself to be socially conservative now? I assume yes, right?

[abu_rashid]

Need that even be asked? Of course I am now. But it's a far cry from my pre-Islamic days.

But as with most things, it's really hard to pigeon hole Islamic political ideology on this one.

Social conservatism for instance is usually linked with xenophobic attitudes and patriotism, and as you know Islam rejects these concepts.

Islam also is not against birth control, nor totally against abortion (in certain circumstances it's actually mandated), issues normally very closely linked with social conservatism.

Islam also has a fairly liberal attitude towards sexuality, as compared to Christianity for instance. A healthy sexual life is considered a must for a healthy and productive and God-fearing society. Issues like polygamy also go against the grain of typical socially conservative attitudes.

[Stormsmith]

I doubt we'll ever be rid of Daesh, because psychopathy knows no boundaries, but they can be cut down en mass, and should be.

[starman2003]

There's no way the world is going to let ISIS survive, the only question is how long their destruction's gonna take and how much it's gonna hurt. The total, humiliating, unsalvageable defeat of Al-Baghdadi's pseudo-caliphate is inescapable.

How can you be sure? It is true that the political amateurishness of IS has made it a total pariah outside its strongholds. But the Pentagon admits airpower won't destroy IS or even necessarily stop it (i.e. US airpower as allied airpower isn't of much significance). Naturally the international community is full of rhetoric and bluster but no nation seems thrilled by the idea of sending in thousands of "boots" to finish IS. Even if they did experience shows that the jihadists can come back even after a catastrophic defeat like that of 2007, when plenty of "boots" aligned with sunni backing to wipe out 95% of them. And now we're supposed to do even better without either boots or enough sunni support? As long as the sunnis are alienated we'll never get rid of IS or even necessarily stop it.

[Gletkin]

I think the IS today is similar to what the Taliban was 20 years ago.
As various secular factions indulge in corruption, repression, and incessant war, a theocratic movement arises presenting a familiar old face and promising peace and order under their reign. Similar to the Taliban, the IS' enemies will have to unite if they want to overthrow their "caliphate". So far though there is no "United Front for the Salvation of Eastern Syria and Western Iraq". Assad and the Syrian rebels, the Turkish and the Kurds, the United States and Iran still aren't convinced that the IS is a greater enemy than each other. Indeed they often accuse each other of aiding the IS or even creating it in the first place.

With its dual alliance with the US and Iran it seems the Iraqi govt. is in an ideal position to be the nucleus of a grand anti-IS coalition. But they can't seem to fight worth a damn and seem to rely too much on sectarian Shi'a militia who despise all Sunnis, not just the IS.

[Foxfyre]

Seems to me that freedom loving people would not presume to judge Islam on its faith or how it came to believe the doctrine and dogma that it believes and teaches. Liberty allows people to be who and what they are and to form whatever sorts of societies they wish to have.

Where Islam becomes evil is when it presumes to force itself upon those who want to be something different than Muslim and who what a different way of life and/or a different society than that which Islam dictates. To punish, torture, murder people for the crime of not being Muslim is evil and THAT is what we must resist. And that is the ONLY valid comparison between ISIS/ISIL and the Nazis. Both were/are entitled to be who and what they are, but justice and virtue requires that they be prevented from conquering and subjugating, torturing, murdering, and enslaving those who choose not to be what their authorities say they must be.

If we do not resist Islam on that basis, and fight back when we are attacked, the day will come when we are all obeying the Adhan (call to prayer) and strictly adhering to Sharia law at least in public.

[starman2003]

But they can't seem to fight worth a damn and seem to rely too much on sectarian Shi'a militia who despise all Sunnis, not just the IS.

The present Iraqi government reminds me of South Vietnam. It seems in order to survive they have to be propped up by outside powers. Had it not been for airstrikes, they'd probably be licked already, or almost. It would be one thing if Abadi finally got enough sunnis on board, thereby undermining IS. But don't bet on it, and if it won't happen we're probably just postponing the inevitable just like in South Vietnam.