[Freedom]

It is easy for them to call for a war, which they they can watch on the TV's in the US. They don't suffer from the bombs and the chaos afterwards, they are the first who will profit from their connections to the occupying power.

I believe i've posted this article before, but i will do it again:

How do you admit you were wrong? What do you do when you realize those you were defending in fact did not want your defence and wanted something completely different from you and from the world?

This is my story. It will probably upset everybody - those with whom I have fought for peace all my life and those for whom the decision for war comes a bit too fast.

I am an Assyrian. I was born and raised in Japan where I am the second generation in ministry after my Father came to Japan in answer to General Douglas Macarthur's call for 10,000 young people to help rebuild Japan following the war.

As a minister and due to my personal convictions I have always been against war for any and all reasons. It was precisely this moral conviction that led me to do all I could to stop the current war in Iraq.

From participating in demonstrations against the war in Japan to strongly opposing it on my radio program, on television and in regular columns I did my best to stand against what I thought to be an unjust war against an innocent people - in fact my people.

As an Assyrian I was told the story of our people from a young age. How my grandparents had escaped the great Assyrian Holocaust in 1917 settling finally in Chicago.

Currently there are approximately six million Assyrians - approximately 1.2 million in Iraq and the rest scattered in the Assyrian Diaspora across the world.

Without a country and rights even in our native land it has been the prayer of generations that the Assyrian Nation will one day be restored and the people of the once great Assyrian Empire will once again be home.


HOME AT LAST

It was with that feeling, together with supplies for our Church and family that I went to Iraq to do all I could to help make a difference. The feeling as I crossed the border was exhilarating - `home at last, I hought, as I would for the first time visit the land of my forefathers. The kindness of the border guards when they learned I was Assyrian, the taxi, the people on the street it was like being back `home` after a long absence.

Now I finally know myself! The laid back, relaxed atmosphere, the kindness to strangers, the food, the smells, the language all seemed to trigger a long lost memory somewhere in my deepest DNA.

The first order of business was to attend Church. It was here where my morals were raked over the coals and I was first forced to examine them in the harsh light of reality.

Following a beautiful 'Peace' to welcome the Peace Activists in which even the children participated, we moved to the next room to have a simple meal.

Sitting next to me was an older man who carefully began to sound me out. Apparently feeling the freedom to talk in the midst of the mingling crowd he suddenly turned to me and said `There is something you should know.` `What` I asked surprised at the sudden comment.

`We didn't want to be here tonight`. he continued. `When the Priest asked us to gather for a Peace Service we said we didn't want to come`. He said.

`What do you mean` I inquired, confused. `We didn't want to come because we don't want peace` he replied.

`What in the world do you mean?` I asked. `How could you not want peace?` `We don't want peace. We want the war to come` he continued.

What in the world are you talking about? I blurted back.

That was the beginning of a strange odyssey that deeply shattered my convictions and moral base but at the same time gave me hope for my people and, in fact, hope for the world.




THE STRANGE ODYSSEY BEGINS

Beginning that night and continuing on in the private homes of relatives with whom I stayed little by little the scales began to come off my eyes.

I had not realized it but began to realize that all foreigners in Iraq are subject to 24 hour surveillance by government `minders` who arrange all interviews, visits and contact with ordinary Iraqis. Through some fluke either by my invitation as a religious person and or my family connection I was not subject to any government `minders` at any time throughout my stay in Iraq.

As far as I can tell I was the only person including the media, Human Shields and others in Iraq without a Government `minder` there to guard.

What emerged was something so awful that it is difficult even now to write about it. Discussing with the head of our tribe what I should do as I wanted to stay in Baghdad with our people during their time of trial I was told that I could most help the Assyrian cause by going out and telling the story to the outside world.

Simply put, those living in Iraq, the common, regular people are in a living nightmare. From the terror that would come across the faces of my family at a unknown visitor, telephone call, knock at the door I began to realize the horror they lived with every day.

Over and over I questioned them `Why could you want war? Why could any human being desire war?` They're answer was quiet and measured. `Look at our lives!`We are living like animals. No food, no car, no telephone, no job and most of all no hope.`

I would marvel as my family went around their daily routine as normal as could be. Baghdad was completely serene without even a hint of war. Father would get up, have his breakfast and go off to work. The children to school, the old people - ten in the household to their daily chores.

`You can not imagine what it is to live with war for 20, 30 years. We have to keep up our routine or we would lose our minds`

Then I began to see around me those seemingly in every household who had lost their minds. It seemed in every household there was one or more people who in any other society would be in a Mental Hospital and the ever present picture of a family member killed in one of the many wars.

Having been born and raised in Japan where in spite of 50 years of democracy still retains vestiges of the 400 year old police state I quickly began to catch the subtle nuances of a full blown, modern police state.

I wept with family members as I shared their pain and with great difficulty and deep soul searching began little by little to understand their desire for war to finally rid them of the nightmare they were living in.

The terrible price paid in simple, down to earth ways - the family member with a son who just screams all the time, the family member who lost his wife who left unable to cope anymore, the family member going to a daily job with nothing to do, the family member with a son lost to the war, a husband lost to alcoholism the daily, difficult to perceive slow death of people for whom all hope is lost.

The pictures of Sadaam Hussein whom people hailed in the beginning with great hope everywhere. Sadaam Hussein with his hand outstretched. Sadaam Hussein firing his rifle. Sadaam Hussein in his Arab Headdress. Sadaam Hussein in his classic 30 year old picture - one or more of these four pictures seemed to be everywhere on walls, in the middle of the road, in homes, as statues - he was everywhere!

All seeing, all knowing, all encompassing.

`Life is hell. We have no hope. But everything will be ok once the war is over.` The bizarre desire for a war that would rid them of the hopelessness was at best hard to understand.

`Look at it this way. No matter how bad it is we will not all die. We have hoped for some other way but nothing has worked. 12 years ago it went almost all the way but failed. We cannot wait anymore. We want the war and we want it now`


Coming back to family members and telling them of progress in the talks at the United Nations on working some sort of compromise with Iraq I was welcomed not with joy but anger. `No, there is no other way! We want the war! It is the only way he will get out of our lives`

Once again going back to my Japanese roots I began to understand. The stories I had heard from older Japanese of how in a strange way they had welcomed the sight of the bombers in the skies over Japan.

Of course nobody wanted to be bombed but the first sight of the American B29 Bombers signaled to them that the war was coming to an end. An end was in sight. There would be terrible destruction. They might very well die but finally in a tragic way there was finally hope.

Then I began to feel so terrible. Here I had been demonstrating against the war thinking I had been doing it for the very people I was here now with and yet I had not ever bothered to ask them what they wanted. What they wanted me to do.

It was clear now what I should do. I began to talk to the so called `human shields`. Have you asked the people here what they want? Have you talked to regular people, away from your `minder` and asked them what they want?

I was shocked at the response. `We don't need to do that. We know what they want.` was the usual reply before a minder stepped up to check who I was.

With tears streaming down my face in my bed in a tiny house in Baghdad crowded in with 10 other of my own flesh and blood, all exhausted after another day of not living but existing without hope, exhausted in daily struggle simply to not die I had to say to myself `I was wrong`.

How dare I claim to speak for those for whom I had never asked what they wanted!


ALL I COULD DO

Then I began a strange journey to do all I could while I could still remain to as asked by our tribe let the world know of the true situation in Iraq.

Carefully and with great risk, not just for me but most of all for those who told their story and opened up their homes for the camera I did my best to tape their plight as honestly and simply as I could. Whether I could get that precious tape out of the country was a different story.

Wanting to make sure I was not simply getting the feelings of a long oppressed minority - the Assyrians - I spoke to dozens of people. What I was not prepared for was the sheer terror they felt at speaking out.

Over and over again I would be told `We would be killed for speaking like this` and finding out that they would only speak in a private home or where they were absolutely sure through the introduction of another Iraqi that I was not being attended by a minder.

From a former member of the Army to a person working with the police to taxi drivers to store owners to mothers to government officials without exception when allowed to speak freely the message was the same - `Please bring on the war. We are ready. We have suffered long enough. We may lose our lives but some of us will survive and for our children's sake please, please end our misery.

On the final day for the first time I saw the signs of war. For the first time sandbags began appearing at various government buildings but the solders putting them up and then later standing within the small circle they created gave a clear message they could not dare speak.

They hated it. They despised it. It was their job and they made clear in the way they worked to the common people watching that they were on their side and would not fight.

Near the end of my time a family member brought the word that guns had just been provided to the members of the Baath Party and for the first time we saw the small but growing signs of war.

But what of their feelings towards the United States and Britain? Those feelings are clearly mixed. They have no love for the British or the Americans but they trust them.

`We are not afraid of the American bombing. They will bomb carefully and not purposely target the people. What we are afraid of is Saddam Hussein and what he and the Baath Party will do when the war begins. But even then we want the war. It is the only way to escape our hell. Please tell them to hurry. We have been through war so many times,but this time it will give us hope`.


AT THE BORDER ... A FINAL CALL FOR HELP

The final call for help came at the most unexpected place - the border. Sadly, and sent off by the crying members of my family I left. Things were changing by the hour - the normally $100 ride from Baghdad to Amman was first $300 then $500 and by nightfall $1,000.

As we came to the border we began the routine paperwork and then the search of our vehicle. Everything was going well until suddenly the border guard asked if I had any money. We had been carefully instructed to make sure we only carried $300 when we returned so I began to open up the pouch that carried my passport and money stuffed in my shorts.

Suddenly the guard began to pat me down. `Oh, no`! I thought. It`s all over`. We had been told of what happened if you got caught with videotape, a cellular telephone or any kind of electronic equipment that had not been declared.

A trip back to Baghdad, a likely appearance before a judge, in some cases 24-48 hour holding and more.

He immediately found the first videotape stuffed in my pocket and took it out. I could see the expression of terror on the driver as he stifled a scream.

The guard shook his head as he reached into my pocket and took out another tape and then from pocket after pocket began to take out tape after tape, cellular telephone, computer camera - all the wrong things.

We all stood there in sheer terror - for a brief moment experiencing the feeling that beginning with my precious family members every Iraqi feels not for a moment but day and night, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. That terrible feeling that your life is not yours that its fate rests in someone else's hands that simply by the whim of the moment they can determine.



For one born free a terrifying feeling if but for an instant.

As the guard slowly laid out the precious video tape on the desk we all waited in silent terror for the word to be taken back to Baghdad and the beginning of the nightmare.

Suddenly he laid the last videotape down and looked up. His face is frozen in my memory but it was to me the look of sadness, anger and then a final look of quiet satisfaction as he clinically shook his head and quietly without a word handed all the precious videotape - the cry of those without a voice - to me.

He didn't have to say a word. I had learned the language of the imprisoned Iraqi. Forbidden to speak by sheer terror they used the one language they had left - human kindness.

As his hands slowly moved to give the tape over he said in his own way what my Uncle had said, what the taxi driver had said, what the broken old man had said, what the man in the restaurant had said, what the Army man had said, what the man working for the police had said, what the old woman had said, what the young girl had said - he said it for them in the one last message a I crossed the border from tyranny to freedom . . .

Please take these tapes and show them to the world. Please help us . . . . and please hurry!

The above was written by a Japanese Assiryan Christian who was Anti war.

Its also very easy to be Anti-War from the comfort of your living room or in front of your computer without knowing the true extent of Saddams tyranny. People in the western world have become greedy on their own relative comfort, so greedy that they come up any manner of claims to stop Arabs living in similar of comfort with freedom of speech and association.
I believe any persons living under constant persecution dream of the day when they are free.

[CasX]

Its also very easy to be Anti-War from the comfort of your living room or in front of your computer

A lot of things are easy from the comfort of your living room...eating chips...wearing cotton socks made by some 62 year old Indonesian woman paid 76 cents for a 14 hour shift...watching TV...supporting wars conducted on the other side of the globe under false pretences against a manufactured enemy...having a nice chat...

...the list goes on and on. The fact is, living rooms are an easy place to do comfortable things.

I believe any persons living under constant persecution dream of the day when they are free.

Please STOP trying to fit obvious moral and ethical points into your war mongering, right-wing agenda. Believe it or not, left wingers also feel sorry for oppressed people. In fact, in the case of the left wing, this pity is GENUINE, and not chosen as the next best alternative reason for war after WMD couldn't be found. But what matters of course, is what we choose to do about these oppressed people. So, enough of the lame emotive points, Mother Teresa.

[Kov]

"Exactly what oil are the Americans getting that they could not have gotten by being friendly with Saddam Hussein?"

Comrade Fox pointed out a lovely thing several months ago. Saddam had stopped doing his meny bussniess in Dollars, and converted to the superior Euro. This, backed with a dwindaling economy and a threat of over importation with dwindiling money gives good reason to get into Iraq, and start pumping dollars.

Guess what happened simply months after our ocupation? The USA started paying the people there in... dollars...


The plot gets thicker.

"Speak for yourself, because you sure dont speak for most iraqis.

This is the result of the first opinion poll in the history of the "free Iraq." The poll was ordered by the Iraqi Strategic Research centre.
51 percent of Iraqi people want occupation troops to stay in Iraq until the constant government is formed. Twenty-five percent of Iraqis want their presence until the establishment of the interim government, and only 17 percent insist on the immediate withdrawal of foreign troops. The majority of Iraqi people think that occupation troops can guarantee security and stability in the region."

Again, you are not sitting in the middle of a foxhole in Iraq are you? That ( Yes <-- that ) is the same counterstement you used on us. Lets not start this up again. I would also say that if Russia did a "poll" in Chechnia, they would find that 99% of all people there want to have no war. Also, 51% is the majority, but 49% is a hell of alot of resistance none the less.

"So Arcis, even though the Iraqi's are glad the coalition ridded them of Saddam, your still wishing they hadnt? You've obviously put your agenda above the livelyhood of the Iraqi citizens. Just be glad you werent one of them, or you'd be singing a different tune right now. Its funny how the anti-war crowd has relegated the people of iraq to the back burner, and argue as if they dont exist. Well news flash, they do exist, and I would love, just once, to see one of you make your argument to one of them, and see how it would fly with a person who had to endure under saddam."

And most people with an IQ larger than that of a Fig also think "If saddam was so bad and we so nice to go around saveing all the helpless people in the world. Where the hell where we 2... 4... 6... years ago?"

"If an this is a big IF. If Bush usurpers democracy in America and wages genocide on his people, then i would agree with some form of coup or military invasion of America.

But as of yet, Bush hasnt done any of these things."

Understandabale But the point still stands. Bush or not, all presidentail emotions set aside, would you let that other country meddile with your politics, even if they initialy killed the leader?

"I wouldnt be talking to em, i'd be calling over some marines to deal with their sorry asses.

Interestingly. The major players in attacks on America are Saddam Loyalist and NON IRAQIS including Al Qaeda, IRanian Clerics and dissident Palestinian terror groups."

If we could only find out where all the 9/11 terrorists came from. Ironic how we now so much on the feild of battle?

"If this were true, they would be asking them to leave. Would the not?"

It is a good point, but the issue with that can be seen in this analagy:

Do you ask the 5 fully armed (enemy) marines garrisoned in your houce, to get the hell out and not expect retaliation if it is of strategic worth to them?

"Its also very easy to be Anti-War from the comfort of your living room or in front of your computer."

Very true, but it is even more easy to do it when you are an experianced front line soldier. To quote JT123 "Well I've been around the military almost everyday of my life, and i'll tell you that no soldiers enjoy war."

[Freedom]

And most people with an IQ larger than that of a Fig also think "If saddam was so bad and we so nice to go around saveing all the helpless people in the world. Where the hell where we 2... 4... 6... years ago?"

Two words for ya: BILL CLINTON

Understandabale But the point still stands. Bush or not, all presidentail emotions set aside, would you let that other country meddile with your politics, even if they initialy killed the leader?

If the leader of my country is sufficiently evil ie: Saddam, Amin, Mengistu evil. Than i would want, nay expect that the International community not shy away from a chance to get rid of him.

If we could only find out where all the 9/11 terrorists came from. Ironic how we now so much on the feild of battle?

I'm not quite sure what this means, however, the 9/11 terrorists come from different places: Saudi Arabia, Morocco. They have been aided an funded by various countries: Iraq(ya heard me!)Iran, Afganistan and Syria. The whole idea of the "War on Terrorism" is to stop states funding groups with the total anihilation of the West and Isreal. Its is also part of this plan to make sure none of said countries have nuclear, biological and chemical capabilities. It isnt even under dispute that Saddam had the intent, knowledge and mind set to produce and distribute said weapons among his favourite terrorists groups. Its is also note worthy: Afganistan and Iraq are much easier military targets than say Iran and Syria(who have more chemical weapons and sponser more terror)

Before it is said: I dont agree with America being friendly with Saudi Arabia either.

"Well I've been around the military almost everyday of my life, and i'll tell you that no soldiers enjoy war."

True, but all soliders expect or train for war. It is their job to protect their country and serve the leader of the country. After 9/11 defending America is a lot trickier task than just UN psycobable.

Casx said in another forum that people are "peace lovers". This is garbage. People are peace lovers at the price of supporting Dictators, this is not a peace i want and it is not a peace i will enjoy, ever.

[Yeddi]

If the leader of my country is sufficiently evil ie: Saddam, Amin, Mengistu evil. Than i would want, nay expect that the International community not shy away from a chance to get rid of him.

There was a chance in 1991, but the US didn't take it. Why now?
I was against the war, not becuase i didn't think that Saddam didn't diserve to be overthrown but i just wonder what all the alterior motives are, adn i hate the Lying of governement. Firstly the war was because of terrorists, then WMD adn then Liberating the Iraqi people. It is very suss.

[Freedom]

There was a chance in 1991, but the US didn't take it. Why now?
I was against the war, not becuase i didn't think that Saddam didn't diserve to be overthrown but i just wonder what all the alterior motives are, adn i hate the Lying of governement. Firstly the war was because of terrorists, then WMD adn then Liberating the Iraqi people. It is very suss.

Again the UN, the ultimate Tyranny. As far as i know the UN mandate that time called only for an expulsion of the Iraqi army from Kuwait. This was achieved. America was acting like a good little UN slave.

Its not really that suspect. All governments may have alterior motives, but that should not cloud the fact that much good will come from the war.

[Comrade Ogilvy]

Again the UN, the ultimate Tyranny. As far as i know the UN mandate that time called only for an expulsion of the Iraqi army from Kuwait.

I agree, we should have just been the 'imperialist empire' in '91, and went all the way to baghdad, against international wishes. Would of saved us alot of trouble today.

[Comrade Osnowski]

Comrade Fox pointed out a lovely thing several months ago. Saddam had stopped doing his meny bussniess in Dollars, and converted to the superior Euro. This, backed with a dwindaling economy and a threat of over importation with dwindiling money gives good reason to get into Iraq, and start pumping dollars.

Guess what happened simply months after our ocupation? The USA started paying the people there in... dollars...

Wow, that is very suspicious. Would also show alterior motives for the Euro users, France and Germany, who obviously want the trade in Euros. Now Britain wouldn't care as it is not part of the euro (yet at least) and Tony "the tosspot" Blair has his head so far up Dubya's arse that it wasn't surprising we'd follow the US. Spain however puzzles me, they were very pro-war (although didn't seem to contribute much...if any), could this be that the Euro has not been so successful in Spain?

Roll on the election, I want Blair gone, like many of my fellow Brits. Personally i think that Labour's Rose is too ensnared in George's Bush

[Comrade Ogilvy]

I think many more dollars have been found or recovered, then euro's.

[Kov]

"Two words for ya: BILL CLINTON"

Well that is funny I msut say... but it proves we where doing otherwise other... things...

"If the leader of my country is sufficiently evil ie: Saddam, Amin, Mengistu evil. Than i would want, nay expect that the International community not shy away from a chance to get rid of him."

They alrady got rid of him... now they are starting there own government and the troops are with them to back anything up. They dont need to be there anymore, right? Or is there more to them there...

"I'm not quite sure what this means, however, the 9/11 terrorists come from different places: Saudi Arabia, Morocco. They have been aided an funded by various countries: Iraq(ya heard me!)Iran, Afganistan and Syria. The whole idea of the "War on Terrorism" is to stop states funding groups with the total anihilation of the West and Isreal. Its is also part of this plan to make sure none of said countries have nuclear, biological and chemical capabilities. It isnt even under dispute that Saddam had the intent, knowledge and mind set to produce and distribute said weapons among his favourite terrorists groups. Its is also note worthy: Afganistan and Iraq are much easier military targets than say Iran and Syria(who have more chemical weapons and sponser more terror)"

There is only one thing that is the same with Iraq and Alquida... the letter Q. Show me, and I will belive.

"True, but all soliders expect or train for war. It is their job to protect their country and serve the leader of the country. After 9/11 defending America is a lot trickier task than just UN psycobable."

Well terrorists have been around long before 9/11

"I agree, we should have just been the 'imperialist empire' in '91, and went all the way to baghdad, against international wishes. Would of saved us alot of trouble today."

Oddly, I agree, but why not even earlyer, since saddam was so bad?

"I think many more dollars have been found or recovered, then euro's."

Once again, thats all we get on the news. But he also had a lot of gold, and other items he could have used for a bad day. In any way, who is to say, he might have found it more stable with the doller... buddha only knows.

[Freedom]

There is only one thing that is the same with Iraq and Alquida... the letter Q. Show me, and I will belive.

The best i can do for you right now is this: http://www.liberationiraq.org/terrorism.shtml

Well terrorists have been around long before 9/11

Again this is silly. What 9/11 showed is that terrorist could kill not only 100s but 3000.

Oddly, I agree, but why not even earlyer, since saddam was so bad?

Twas the geopolitics of the cold war...hippies hate it, conservatives dont mind but the Soviet Union is gone because of it.

[Kov]

"Again this is silly. What 9/11 showed is that terrorist could kill not only 100s but 3000."

I dont get it... are you attempting to say that terrorisum did not exist untill 9/11? Who cares if some 3000 people died! It is still a human life,
three, three hundered, three milion, it is still all a tradegy.

"Twas the geopolitics of the cold war...hippies hate it, conservatives dont mind but the Soviet Union is gone because of it."

I dont fully understand what you are saying here, however I do get the general idea. You are right about the cold war, but it is still ironic that it took years after the fall to go in and "liberate" Iraq. I do not recall the US forces "liberating" anyone in the pursian gulf war.

"Iraqi intelligence documents discovered in Baghdad by The Telegraph have provided the first evidence of a direct link between Osama bin Laden's al-Qa'eda terrorist network and Saddam Hussein's regime.
Papers found yesterday in the bombed headquarters of the Mukhabarat, Iraq's intelligence service, reveal that an al-Qa'eda envoy was invited clandestinely to Baghdad in March 1998.

The documents show that the purpose of the meeting was to establish a relationship between Baghdad and al-Qa'eda based on their mutual hatred of America and Saudi Arabia. The meeting apparently went so well that it was extended by a week and ended with arrangements being discussed for bin Laden to visit Baghdad."

This is taken from your link, it later says that:

"The papers will be seized on by Washington as the first proof of what the United States has long alleged - that, despite denials by both sides, Saddam's regime had a close relationship with al-Qa'eda."

This, if true and ligit, has nothing to do with 9/11 and anything in that matter. If we blame Iraq for 9/11 with this kind of evidance, we might as well convict ourselves for GIVING the Afgans (not Iraqies, Afgans) weaonry and training, by the CIA of all orginizations. Also, "Al-Q" has attempted to kill saddam 3 times... how close a relationship is that? Hitler and Churchel?

[Freedom]

I dont get it... are you attempting to say that terrorisum did not exist untill 9/11? Who cares if some 3000 people died! It is still a human life,
three, three hundered, three milion, it is still all a tradegy

Of course terrorism existed before 9/11 i live in Ireland, i know all about terrorism. But what 9/11 showed America and me was that Extreme Militant Islam(or those who use islam as a front for murder) was indeed a grave and serious threat to America and many other countries. As of 9/11 America has been pretty successful on the Anti Terrorism front. When in one day 3000 people die with a warning(thats about as much in the entire Northern Ireland Troubles) you know its time to be proactive and stop that kind of atrocity.

I dont fully understand what you are saying here, however I do get the general idea. You are right about the cold war, but it is still ironic that it took years after the fall to go in and "liberate" Iraq. I do not recall the US forces "liberating" anyone in the pursian gulf war.

What i meant was that all US foreign policy during the Cold War was aimed at stopping the unrelenting spread of the Soviet Empire and those who would allign themselves with it.

Wars cost Money, America commited the largest amount of troops to fufil the UN mandate in the first Gulf War, then they commited troops to Somalia and had troops positioned in various hot spots around the world. I think its blatently obvious that the majority of people wouldnt have cared less about Iraq or the Middle East if it wasnt for 9/11 so the US government wouldnt have gotten as much support as it did. Also Saddam funds various terror networks from Ansar Al Islam(attempt a cout in Kurdistan every know and then) and various Militant Palestinian groups.

Funny though that another anti war argument is the Paul Wolfowitz had made out a plan to intervene in the Middle East in 1992, Donald Rumfield ask Clinton in the mid 90s and that Tony Blair saw the threat from his first year in office.

also they did liberate Kuwait...

This, if true and ligit, has nothing to do with 9/11 and anything in that matter. If we blame Iraq for 9/11 with this kind of evidance

I dont think they were involved to directly in 9/11 although i think they couldve had a preknowledge of it. To fight terrorism you have to cut the funds off. This means eliminate big and small donars to terrorism. Iran and Syria are more supportive of terrorists than Saddam, but Iraq is an easier military target.

GIVING the Afgans

Twaddle, if we gave so much money to those Afganis and Bin Laden he's a pretty lousy friend you know we give him millions he attempts to destroy the western world. I also doubt that the Americans knew that Bin Laden would become such a threat. Like a lot of the Cold War, America achieved its main goal, but then gets bitten in the ass for a bit.

I have no problem funding the various opposition groups to the brutal Soviet occupation then murderous war of Afganistan, against the peoples will, oddly America are so super evil that those silly Iraqis dont mind the occupation so bad, evil pure evil

Also, "Al-Q" has attempted to kill saddam 3 times

They were also on Udays pay-roll...close huh?

When did those attempts take place?(seriously i'm curious)

[Kov]

"Of course terrorism existed before 9/11 i live in Ireland, i know all about terrorism. But what 9/11 showed America and me was that Extreme Militant Islam(or those who use islam as a front for murder) was indeed a grave and serious threat to America and many other countries. As of 9/11 America has been pretty successful on the Anti Terrorism front. When in one day 3000 people die with a warning(thats about as much in the entire Northern Ireland Troubles) you know its time to be proactive and stop that kind of atrocity."

Thank you for explaning, and I agree to most of the above. However the USA is not doing a productive job of its anti terror "stuff" especialy since they have caught not a soul yet... But thats a debate for another time.

"What i meant was that all US foreign policy during the Cold War was aimed at stopping the unrelenting spread of the Soviet Empire and those who would allign themselves with it.

Wars cost Money, America commited the largest amount of troops to fufil the UN mandate in the first Gulf War, then they commited troops to Somalia and had troops positioned in various hot spots around the world. I think its blatently obvious that the majority of people wouldnt have cared less about Iraq or the Middle East if it wasnt for 9/11 so the US government wouldnt have gotten as much support as it did. Also Saddam funds various terror networks from Ansar Al Islam(attempt a cout in Kurdistan every know and then) and various Militant Palestinian groups.

Funny though that another anti war argument is the Paul Wolfowitz had made out a plan to intervene in the Middle East in 1992, Donald Rumfield ask Clinton in the mid 90s and that Tony Blair saw the threat from his first year in office."

Points taken again, thank you for explaining and sorry for not understanding.

" dont think they were involved to directly in 9/11 although i think they couldve had a preknowledge of it. To fight terrorism you have to cut the funds off. This means eliminate big and small donars to terrorism. Iran and Syria are more supportive of terrorists than Saddam, but Iraq is an easier military target. "

Which leads to the question, why know and why there? Bush rattled his sabor at Iran and Syria... but no war. It is also ironic how many people still think there is a Direct link... where it is, even you do not know

"Twaddle, if we gave so much money to those Afganis and Bin Laden he's a pretty lousy friend you know we give him millions he attempts to destroy the western world. I also doubt that the Americans knew that Bin Laden would become such a threat. Like a lot of the Cold War, America achieved its main goal, but then gets bitten in the ass for a bit.

I have no problem funding the various opposition groups to the brutal Soviet occupation then murderous war of Afganistan, against the peoples will, oddly America are so super evil that those silly Iraqis dont mind the occupation so bad, evil pure evil"

Firstly america did the same thing in Veitnam, also the CIA was funding TERRORISTS, not Bin Laden, TERRORISTS. And now they complain? It is possible that they did not know how bad he was a threat... but leads one question. Why does he deny the fact that he did anything to do with 9/11??? He is in no position to gain anything...

"They were also on Udays pay-roll...close huh?

When did those attempts take place?(seriously i'm curious)"

Honestly, it was taken from a post on this site of some guy talking abotu an article he had. I wish I would have remembered the dates, but they did try. I belive they called him some "Non islamic killer" or something of that nature...

[Freedom]

. However the USA is not doing a productive job of its anti terror "stuff" especialy since they have caught not a soul yet... But thats a debate for another time.

This is just straight lies. They've caught many rank'n'file Al Qaida/Talibanners and also a few higher level Islamic Militants and Al Qaida members. This is just a lie. There is more to Al Qaida than just Bin Laden.

Which leads to the question, why know and why there? Bush rattled his sabor at Iran and Syria... but no war. It is also ironic how many people still think there is a Direct link... where it is, even you do not know

The mistake people made that Saddam organized the militants, he funded, backed and gave refuge to them. America is trying to cut off the money trail to these groups and try to bleed them dry.

Firstly america did the same thing in Veitnam

And the Russians and the North Koreans backed, aided, funded and supported the Vietcong. Really, people talk about the cold war as if it was only America involved. Its also worth noting that the Vietcong have more blood on their hands than Pol Pots, Idi Amin, Pinochet and the Apartheid combined. People view the Vietcong as some benelovent loving caring America beating cool guys, really they are mass murders and opressors.(this is again a story for another day)/ Also America was doing their good buddies the French a favour in Vietnam

also the CIA was funding TERRORISTS

They funded all kinds of groups. Really i still have no problem with the Soviet Union getting there asses whooped by a bunch of peasants with water guns Maybe we share a different view of the superbness of the Soviet Union. But the Soviet failure in Afganistan was a key to their downfall.

Why does he deny the fact that he did anything to do with 9/11???

If this means Bush Jr, than simple, he wasnt in office at the time. Also Jimmy Carter had a lot to do with funding the rebels in Afganistan.

[Kov]

"This is just straight lies. They've caught many rank'n'file Al Qaida/Talibanners and also a few higher level Islamic Militants and Al Qaida members. This is just a lie. There is more to Al Qaida than just Bin Laden."

No no no... I mean US customs... not a single person has been busted going into the states... period. Russia has been at war with the chechins every day for 11 years... and we get about 6 a week.

"The mistake people made that Saddam organized the militants, he funded, backed and gave refuge to them. America is trying to cut off the money trail to these groups and try to bleed them dry. "

That may as well be it, however we will never know truly, will we...



"And the Russians and the North Koreans backed, aided, funded and supported the Vietcong. Really, people talk about the cold war as if it was only America involved. Its also worth noting that the Vietcong have more blood on their hands than Pol Pots, Idi Amin, Pinochet and the Apartheid combined. People view the Vietcong as some benelovent loving caring America beating cool guys, really they are mass murders and opressors.(this is again a story for another day)/ Also America was doing their good buddies the French a favour in Vietnam"

It is nice to see that you use my ways of puting things. Well said, for the above is the way of all politics, once again, we are at a standstill.

"They funded all kinds of groups. Really i still have no problem with the Soviet Union getting there asses whooped by a bunch of peasants with water guns Maybe we share a different view of the superbness of the Soviet Union. But the Soviet failure in Afganistan was a key to their downfall."

Agreed, the USA did as we did to them in Veitnam. Oddly we payed them a death toal, and we them. Took us some 9 years though

"If this means Bush Jr, than simple, he wasnt in office at the time. Also Jimmy Carter had a lot to do with funding the rebels in Afganistan."

No, after 9/11 Bin Laden told (said in his speaches) several times that he was not responsible fron 9/11. Please read my "9/11 hoax thread"