[Comrade Ogilvy]

We have no evidance, and neither do you in your cause.

WTF? Do you not listen to the news? I get my news from all over the place, as almost ALL news is somewhat biased. But in the majority of interviews I have read/heard with iraqi citizens, coalition soldiers, civil administrators, etc., the Iraqi's have welcomed US forces with 'smiles and flowers'. All of this propoganda to the opposite is absolute bullshit. So to all of you calling Operation Iraqi Freedom a 'unjust war', try telling that to the people of Iraq, they seemed to think it was. And I'll take their word for it, not yours.

[Kov]

"WTF? Do you not listen to the news? I get my news from all over the place, as almost ALL news is somewhat biased. But in the majority of interviews I have read/heard with iraqi citizens, coalition soldiers, civil administrators, etc., the Iraqi's have welcomed US forces with 'smiles and flowers'. All of this propoganda to the opposite is absolute bullshit. So to all of you calling Operation Iraqi Freedom a 'unjust war', try telling that to the people of Iraq, they seemed to think it was. And I'll take their word for it, not yours."

I will simply say two things, first quoting you to answer your own question:

"That would be safe to say if you were on the ground in Iraq, are you?"

The point is, we are not there, we do not see it, and every damn news agency is different. For example, the Russian news is wonderful to watch and listen to all they say, unfortunantly many inernational news networks you get from other countries are actualy shot here, in the USA, thus they are still not to be trusted. Plus overall translation errors, remember how pissed some Middle Easterners where when the USA miss translated some of the 911 stuff?

[Catria]

But in the majority of interviews I have read/heard with iraqi citizens, coalition soldiers, civil administrators, etc., the Iraqi's have welcomed US forces with 'smiles and flowers'. All of this propoganda to the opposite is absolute bullshit

Sounds like a case of selective reading/hearing...

So I suppose all the various dissident groups[not just Saddam loyalists], the US deaths, the resentful civilians,you know, those who have been wounded, those who lost families, those who get caught up in the raids.... the riots in Basra...all bullshit eh? So you claim almost all the interviews you read reinforce this impression? Well here's just a few that dont. Maybe you should widen your reading sources.

Smiles and flowers...??

'Bring us home': GIs flood US with war-weary emails

An unprecedented internet campaign waged on the frontline and in the US is exposing the real risks for troops in Iraq.

Through emails and chatrooms a picture is emerging of day-to-day gripes, coupled with ferocious criticism of the way the war has been handled. In a message posted on a website last week, one soldier was brutally frank.

'Somewhere down the line, we became an occupation force in [Iraqi] eyes. We don't feel like heroes any more,'

Private Isaac Kindblade of the 671st Engineer Company.


Neither the Iraqis nor the Americans ever dreamed that Baghdad would be like this, ten weeks to the day after Saddam Hussein's regime was finally toppled.

The people of this city are still gripped with the deepening problems of poor security, interminable power shortages and unpaid salaries. Their frustration is spilling over into a spate of attacks on the US military, which are met with heavy-handed raids and mass arrests which, in turn, spark yet greater frustration. Searing midsummer temperatures do little to cool tempers on either side.

"I hoped and I wished that when the American forces came they would bring us democracy and freedom but unfortunately we have seen the opposite," said Hussein, a non-commissioned officer in the air force for the past 18 years. "The Americans are going to get hurt if the situation remains as it is."

Rory McCarthy in Baghdad
The Guardian


But Iraqis say that the regularity of deaths in their own civilian population has drastically affected feelings regarding the U.S. occupation.

In numerous interviews, they warn that more than other factors -- like widespread unemployment, fuel shortages and electricity blackouts -- civilian casualties have hardened bitterness against U.S. soldiers, and could prolong or widen the armed resistance against them.

"It has increased our hate against Americans," said Ali Hatem, 23, a computer science student at the University of Baghdad. "It also increases the violence against them. In Iraq we are tribal people. When someone loses their son, they want revenge."

SF Gate.com


Tell me, would a "smiles and flowers" occupation overlord need to say this:

We are going to fight them and impose our will on them and we will capture or... kill them until we have imposed law and order on this country," he declared at the weekend. "We dominate the scene and we will continue to impose our will on this country.

Paul Bremmer
July Ist

[arcis]

This war was (is?) based on lies. Everbody knows that.

Therefore the people in Iraq don't feel liberated, although they are liberated, they feel occupied and deceived because of this lies. The only reason for the war was (is ?) oil and all other aspects of the story are coincidences.

"Smoking guns and mushroom clouds at the horizon..."

This crap would be ridiculous, if it wouldn't be the reason for the death of thousands of people.

[Freedom]

Therefore the people in Iraq don't feel liberated, although they are liberated, they feel occupied and deceived because of this lies. The only reason for the war was (is ?) oil and all other aspects of the story are coincidences.

Exactly what oil are the Americans getting that they could not have gotten by being friendly with Saddam Hussein?

[Comrade Ogilvy]

Therefore the people in Iraq don't feel liberated, although they are liberated, they feel occupied and deceived because of this lies.

Speak for yourself, because you sure dont speak for most iraqis.

This is the result of the first opinion poll in the history of the "free Iraq." The poll was ordered by the Iraqi Strategic Research Center.
51 percent of Iraqi people want occupation troops to stay in Iraq until the constant government is formed. Twenty-five percent of Iraqis want their presence until the establishment of the interim government, and only 17 percent insist on the immediate withdrawal of foreign troops. The majority of Iraqi people think that occupation troops can guarantee security and stability in the region.

News agencies continue reporting actions of protest among the Iraqi people, who demand the withdrawal of occupation forces. However, as it turns out, only 17 percent of Iraqis want Americans and their allies leave. It would be rather logic to assume that the rest of them do not share that point of view.

So how does that strike you?

[arcis]

"So how does that strike you?"

This strikes me as much as mushroom clouds and smoking guns.

The american government has lost all credibility.

[Comrade Ogilvy]

So Arcis, even though the Iraqi's are glad the coalition ridded them of Saddam, your still wishing they hadnt? You've obviously put your agenda above the livelyhood of the Iraqi citizens. Just be glad you werent one of them, or you'd be singing a different tune right now. Its funny how the anti-war crowd has relegated the people of iraq to the back burner, and argue as if they dont exist. Well news flash, they do exist, and I would love, just once, to see one of you make your argument to one of them, and see how it would fly with a person who had to endure under saddam.

[arcis]

1. And would also be interested in your discussion with one of the people who are killing every day some of your soldiers.

2. And I always speak for myself.
Saddam Hussein was a bastard, but he was an arab bastard. And I can't remember that any people of the iraq begging the americans of removing him from power. This is the differencce. Do you understand? First the people of iraq were humiliated by their dictator and they are humiliated by the occupying powers.

3. And how would you feel, if an arab super power (maybe Iraq) would invade the US to remove the regime of G.W.Bush without being asked for from the americans?

[Freedom]

3. And how would you feel, if an arab super power (maybe Iraq) would invade the US to remove the regime of G.W.Bush without being asked for from the americans?

If an this is a big IF. If Bush usurpers democracy in America and wages genocide on his people, then i would agree with some form of coup or military invasion of America.

But as of yet, Bush hasnt done any of these things.

2. And I always speak for myself.
Saddam Hussein was a bastard, but he was an arab bastard. And I can't remember that any people of the iraq begging the americans of removing him from power. This is the differencce. Do you understand? First the people of iraq were humiliated by their dictator and they are humiliated by the occupying powers.

I dont really understand this, what difference does it make if he was an Arab, an Africa, Asian or European, he was a Bastard he deserved removal.

Funny...the only Iraqi exile groups not at least cautiously optimistic about a war on Iraq are the smallest and most insignificant. Actually if you read polls of the people of Bagdad and of Kurdistan then you will realise that the people of Iraq have been crying out for anyone to help them.

1. And would also be interested in your discussion with one of the people who are killing every day some of your soldiers

I wouldnt be talking to em, i'd be calling over some marines to deal with their sorry asses.

Interestingly. The major players in attacks on America are Saddam Loyalist and NON IRAQIS including Al Qaeda, IRanian Clerics and dissident Palestinian terror groups.

[Comrade Ogilvy]

And would also be interested in your discussion with one of the people who are killing every day some of your soldiers.

It is popular belief of the coalition commanders, the soldiers on the ground, and the INC, that the majority of these belligerents are ex-fedayeen, Syrian/Iranian/Jordanian Nationals, and other terrorist organizations.

And I can't remember that any people of the iraq begging the americans of removing him from power.

How about the INC, the Iraqi National Congress, iraqi expatriats and exiles from all over the world, and the Iraqi opposition group, and the Kurds, to name a few.

First the people of iraq were humiliated by their dictator and they are humiliated by the occupying powers.

If this were true, they would be asking them to leave. Would the not?[/quote]

[arcis]

"... then i would agree with some form of coup or military invasion of America."

I don't think, that you would be very happy after Iraq would have installed some puppet regime in the US to control the economy and resources of the country. And what would you say, if this puppet regime starts to push the arab culture and arab way of life in the whole country. Women with veils?
No pork anymore. Everywhere mosques. And your laws exchanged by the "sharia"? (Sorry, I don't know the english word for islamic law system).

Still interested in an invasion of the iraqi army or is bush still bearable?

[jaakko]

INFO-STRIKE:

INC is an Anglo-American tool, a fact even INC themselves don't bother to cover up much. Over the years, INC has been bribed with millions and millions of dollars by the USA. Before the attack on Iraq I visited the INC's site, and saw how they were proudly announcing of how many millions their last package from the US government included. The INC is a fifth column, in the fullest meaning of the term.

[Comrade Ogilvy]

Sure Arcis, change the subject when your argument goes south.

[Comrade Ogilvy]

Members of three Islamic groups stepped forward on Saturday to claim responsibility for a number of recent guerrilla attacks that have left several U.S. soldiers dead and scores of others injured in Baghdad.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,94301,00.html

[Freedom]

To Acris: Please read this http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/P ... 9bfuqn.asp

As for Jaakkos post, it is true that the INC have been funded by America. Paul Wolfozwits is closely linked with the INC . The Americans have been linked with various other opposition groups in Iraq. Maybe its an idealogical thing, but i dont have a problem with it.

[Iuto]

About class struggle in Iraq

http://www.geocities.com/icgcikg/communism/c11_iraq.htm

[Nox]

The american government has lost all credibility.

Interesting statement.

Now that Schmidt has done a flip-flop ... how do you feel about the credibility of the German Government?

Nox

[arcis]

"Now that Schmidt has done a flip-flop ... how do you feel about the credibility of the German Government? "

Schmidt? In which time do you live?

I dont't have any problems if our government starts to think about humanitarian aid for the iraqi people after an UN resolution. Just as the european (german) troops in Afghanistan.

[arcis]

"How about the INC, the Iraqi National Congress, iraqi expatriats and exiles from all over the world, and the Iraqi opposition group, and the Kurds, to name a few."

It is easy for them to call for a war, which they they can watch on the TV's in the US. They don't suffer from the bombs and the chaos afterwards, they are the first who will profit from their connections to the occupying power.