Secession and Formation of New Governments in the 21st cent - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

Wandering the information superhighway, he came upon the last refuge of civilization, PoFo, the only forum on the internet ...

Ongoing wars and conflict resolution, international agreements or lack thereof. Nationhood, secessionist movements, national 'home' government versus internationalist trends and globalisation.

Moderator: PoFo Political Circus Mods

Forum rules: No one line posts please.
#14530745
I'm a liberal. Perhaps a bit more to the right than the average progressive. However, thinking it through, I would like to propose a progressive case for an "escape clause." Allow people that do not see eye-to-eye to live in separate communal and/or national boundaries under their own rules.

I'll keep this short because this is a forum, and I don't have a perfect blueprint. I want to discuss the benefits and drawbacks of allowing groups of people to secede from a state, province, or even an entire country.

Some benefits:
From a regular progressive point of view: If fundamentalist groups secede (religious, ideological, etc), it would allow the original "body" (nation or community) to more easily proceed with the goals of economic and social reforms (a strong public education system, living wages, health care, equal rights, etc). This would allow those that secede to still "live in the stone age" so to speak. If there are people that cannot stand living in the seceded territory, they can certainly move, and I would think that it is the job of the original country to handle an immigration policy that accommodates this initial split.

This situation is purely hypothetical, and the original nation or community could also have different issues or common values such as race, sex, faith, or political identification of conservative, liberal, socialistic, etc.

Some Drawbacks:
Assuming a current or similar system of finance, public institutions in the newly seceded territory originally funded by the initial nation, state, or community may have new funding issues under the new government of the territory. There could be an initial fallout of funds if the government lacks the resources to do so. Additionally, I also do still think it is foolish to think that human beings do not feel tied to a place that they have lived in. If somebody enjoys living in a place that suddenly decides to secede with other places as a whole, it may not be that simple for the individual, family, or sub-community to "just move." The place that they live in could greatly accommodate their practices and/or have some sentimental value. They could of course secede themselves. There is also the issue of violence. Historically, nations have fought large wars over resources. It isn't safe to say that some decisions to secede would not be received with some sort of retaliation, either from the original community/nation/state, or from the people that want to secede if the original party will not let them.

I am new to politics and international relations in general. I have just come back from a long break from politics as well, and it has become more and more practical to me to let groups that don't agree just "go their separate ways." The idea has some facets that might run counter to the current global system we have in place, which would cause a lot of initial conflict of interest, but mostly I was just looking for people that might feel the same way, and might have something to add. Defenses of aspects of globalization of information, culture, etc are welcome as well. Like I said, it's just something that I have been turning over in my mind for a long time.
#14534828
So you would let Islamist formations to stone female adulterers, Catholics priests to rape boys, and Christian sects to marry 9 year old girls, all next-door to your own neighbourhood? Why, so you don't have to interact with immigrants?
#14534835
So you would let Islamist formations to stone female adulterers, Catholics priests to rape boys, and Christian sects to marry 9 year old girls, all next-door to your own neighbourhood? Why, so you don't have to interact with immigrants?


On a purely theoretical basis if everyone living there agrees with it, why should you not accept it?
In the real world, I do not know of any community that suggests priests should rape boys. You are just using absurdities as an argument.

Searching my posts will show how I support the idea of secession. 'Islands of Humanity' describes my basic plan.
I also suggest there be a minimal acceptable population such as 10,000 people to eliminate the absurdities mentioned above.
There is a difference between a cult and a group of people who have different views on how to lead their lives.
#14534847
One Degree wrote:On a purely theoretical basis if everyone living there agrees with it, why should you not accept it?

I'm sure the underage American girls who are married to the "divine" leader of a sect agrees with it. That doesn't make it acceptable.
One Degree wrote:In the real world, I do not know of any community that suggests priests should rape boys. You are just using absurdities as an argument.

A Catholic community that employs "celibate" priests with access to alter boys in good faith is not inconceivable. Nor is it inconceivable that the priests in such a community would abuse the alter boys.
One Degree wrote:I also suggest there be a minimal acceptable population such as 10,000 people to eliminate the absurdities mentioned above.

Mere numbers isn't going to prevent such absurdities from happening. All it takes is a (relatively) powerful clique and a measure of legitimacy to protect them.
One Degree wrote:
There is a difference between a cult and a group of people who have different views on how to lead their lives.

I agree, but how are these going to be distinguished if a sect (or a group with practices resembling that of a sect) demands secession?
#14534849
How many of the things you just mentioned would be affected by the size of an autonomous area. They are all things currently happening in large autonomous areas. It is much more likely that smaller areas will have more direct input to their government and these things would be stopped.
#14534852
One Degree wrote:They are all things currently happening in large autonomous areas.

Indeed, yet in the vast majority of these areas they are all punishable offences. Whenever these things happen in large scale, they mostly do because the authorities are unable to handle them - either due to corruption or lack of resources. Remove the willingness to fight these crimes, and you'll soon be facing human nature at its worst.
One Degree wrote:It is much more likely that smaller areas will have more direct input to their government and these things would be stopped.

This presupposes that there is an objective and independent force willing to fight for rights that may contradict that of the majority of the group. If there is no such force, these kinds of things are left to unfold with impunity.
#14534853
This presupposes that there is an objective and independent force willing to fight for rights that may contradict that of the majority of the group. If there is no such force, these kinds of things are left to unfold with impunity.


Yes, you are correct.
I also see this as a problem in our larger societies because the inaction is reinforced by the distance (physically and socially) from the decision makers. They reinforce this by making decisions based upon special interests and barely concealing it to show how ineffective we are.
It is my 'hope' that having government closer to the people will demonstrate they must be willing to participate actively.
This would have to be an ongoing educational program.
I see it as the lesser of two evils. Corruption on a small level still leaves other communities which may not be corrupted. Corruption on a large level leaves the people no place to go to.
#14534856
Well it does happen, like there's the Amish community in the USA. Totally cut off & self-governing, etc

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-09-1[…]

"We believe"... That is not science, th[…]

Blackface: Canada's Racist PM

I suspect that if you go in the past(10 to 20 yea[…]

I'm 6'2", 280 lbs with 12% body fat. There[…]