U.S Terrorists bomb MSF hospital - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14606667
Highly unlikely the worlds biggest terrorists will be brought to account for this, but nice to imagine they will.

The US-led air strike on a hospital in the Afghan city of Kunduz that killed at least 19 people, including 12 staff of Doctors Without Borders (MSF) was "inexcusable" and possibly criminal, UN's human rights chief said, as the Pentagon ordered an investigation into the deadly raid.

Zeid Ra'ad Al Hussein called for a full and transparent investigation, noting that, "if established as deliberate in a court of law, an air strike on a hospital may amount to a war crime".

"This event is utterly tragic, inexcusable and possibly even criminal," Zeid said in a statement.

Meinie Nicolai, MSF President, also condemned the attack as "abhorrent and a grave violation of International Humanitarian Law."


Yes we know all the usual excuses "We didn't mean it like the terrorists do" and "The terrorists were storing weapons there" etc. wears a little thin after the umpteenth time, and knowing they provided their GPS co-ordinates. This is terrorism plain and simple.

Source: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/10/a ... 57396.html
#14606671
A real tragedy. It should be investigated.

Of course, the sooner the Taliban is eliminated the sooner kind of stuff will stop.

Reuters: The Afghan Ministry of Defence said in a statement that Taliban fighters had attacked the hospital and were using the building "as a human shield." It said during the firefight, a rocket landed close to the hospital, wounding civilians.


Hmmmmm.....
#14606699
Drlee wrote:A real tragedy. It should be investigated.

No, the terrorists should be brought to justice, or justice brought to them. Sound familiar?

Drlee wrote:Of course, the sooner the Taliban is eliminated the sooner kind of stuff will stop.

As I predicted.

Drlee wrote:Reuters: The Afghan Ministry of Defence said in a statement that Taliban fighters had attacked the hospital and were using the building "as a human shield." It said during the firefight, a rocket landed close to the hospital, wounding civilians.

Hmmmmm.....

MSF never stated anything like this, wonder why?

And even if this is the case, would that mean you accept U.S citizens being targeted because their military hides amongs them? Or does it only go one way?
#14606700
I posted this one hour before you in today's news. I feel betrayed Rashid

Nevermind, i have nothing much to add on the subject since the facts are self-explaining and executed with a perfect timing to ridiculize the US in the eyes of the world's public opinion while everyone is cheering for Russia's intervention in Syria.
#14606712
Noelnada wrote:I posted this one hour before you in today's news. I feel betrayed Rashid

The more it's broadcast the better.

Noelnada wrote:Nevermind, i have nothing much to add on the subject since the facts are self-explaining and executed with a perfect timing to ridiculize the US in the eyes of the world's public opinion while everyone is cheering for Russia's intervention in Syria.

Cheering for Russia's Afghanistan II.
#14606716
Cheering for Russia's Afghanistan II.


I wouldn't bet on it since the situation is quite different but i wouldn't make any bet on future outcomes, it all depends on other players next moves.
#14606718
abu_rashid wrote:No, the terrorists should be brought to justice, or justice brought to them. Sound familiar?


Yes, it does. False equivalence is a go-to fallback of reactionaries everywhere. Deliberate targeting of civilians is not equivalent to a misdirected bomb. I am against US policy in the ME, but don't ever think for a minute that the West's contempt for your behavior is unjustified.
#14606733
Noelnada wrote:I wouldn't bet on it since the situation is quite different but i wouldn't make any bet on future outcomes, it all depends on other players next moves.

Yes this time the Islamists are far more organised and equipped, and their resolve is much greater. Russia is going to look back at Afghanistan like it was a picnic compared to Syria. And on the flip side, groups like IS & JN are going to win greatly from it, their ranks will swell with those who otherwise would've been far more moderate.
#14606735
abu_rashid wrote:Yes this time the Islamists are far more organised and equipped, and their resolve is much greater. Russia is going to look back at Afghanistan like it was a picnic compared to Syria. And on the flip side, groups like IS & JN are going to win greatly from it, their ranks will swell with those who otherwise would've been far more moderate.


You and I spoke some time ago of the distinction between the 'Romans' and the 'Franj' in Islamic thought. We'll see what happens, won't we?
#14606738
Yes this time the Islamists are far more organised and equipped, and their resolve is much greater. Russia is going to look back at Afghanistan like it was a picnic compared to Syria. And on the flip side, groups like IS & JN are going to win greatly from it, their ranks will swell with those who otherwise would've been far more moderate.


Well so far they are getting their asses kicked.

They will find in Russia, an enemy far more brutal than the US.
#14606741
Drlee wrote:Well so far they are getting their asses kicked.

Don't you think it's a little too early for this kind of talk? They've carried out a few cowardly airstrikes from the sky. The U.S have been doing that for over a year (in coalition with several other nations) and it's barely caused a scratch to the Mujahideen.

Drlee wrote:They will find in Russia, an enemy far more brutal than the US.

You speak (from an obvious lack of knowledge) as if they've never had any encounter with the Russians before. Many of the top commanders of the Mujahideen in Syria are veterans of Afghanistan and Chechnya. They know full well about Russia.
#14606810
Lets not go off-topic, there's an Afghanistan thread started by Abu for making comparisons.

The bombing of the MSF hospital was a regrettable failure of US/Afghan targeting.

quetzalcoatl wrote:Yes, it does. False equivalence is a go-to fallback of reactionaries everywhere. Deliberate targeting of civilians is not equivalent to a misdirected bomb. I am against US policy in the ME, but don't ever think for a minute that the West's contempt for your behavior is unjustified.

^This.

There is also a timely lesson regarding criticism of the Russian operation so far in Syria, it does not matter how accurate your weapons are if they are poorly targeted since a well aimed iron bomb beats a poorly aimed precision weapon any day.
#14606812
The overarching theme here is that there is a war, based upon terror, being waged by the Taliban against the people of Afghanistan, in which they directly attack civilian targets with the idea of oppressing the entire population and in which civilian casualties are of no consequence. Opposing this is a force that is supposed to fight by the Marquis of Queensbury Rules.

Muslim terrorists are such whiners. When they practice terror, oppression, rape and murder it is a Holy war. When others make a mistake it is a war crime.
#14606813
Typhoon wrote:The bombing of the MSF hospital was a regrettable failure of US/Afghan targeting.

What a load of nonsense. This was 100% deliberate. The U.S knew full well it was an MSF hospital, their systems are so accurate they could've hit the bell on the reception desk if they wanted to. I can't believe anyone would honestly think otherwise.
#14606814
What a load of nonsense. This was 100% deliberate. The U.S knew full well it was an MSF hospital, their systems are so accurate they could've hit the bell on the reception desk if they wanted to. I can't believe anyone would honestly think otherwise.


Evidence?

I thought not.
#14606818
MSF reject U.S propaganda used to justify the bombing of the hospital

Medical aid group Doctors Without Borders — also known as Médecins Sans Frontières, or MSF — denied that Taliban fighters were firing from its hospital at Afghan and NATO forces before a suspected US air strike killed at least 19 people in a battle to oust the Islamist insurgents from an Afghan city.


Source: https://news.vice.com/article/msf-denie ... vicenewsfb

Drlee wrote:Evidence?

I thought not.

MSF have stated that they've given their exact GPS co-ordinates several times to the U.S, so they know full well, and it's also well known what accuracy levels their weaponry operates at. You can't seriously hope to argue this point. About the only option you've got, is just like your government, to argue the "human shields" nonsense, which the article above also obliterates. Face it you're the terrorists. Everyone else is just trying to fend you off, as you force your terror onto them.
#14606819
abu_rashid wrote:What a load of nonsense. This was 100% deliberate. The U.S knew full well it was an MSF hospital, their systems are so accurate they could've hit the bell on the reception desk if they wanted to. I can't believe anyone would honestly think otherwise.


Accuracy (or more specifically "precision") is not the same as targeting.

Hospitals in Afghanistan are not usually of outstandingly different architecture than any surrounding buildings. From the air, an array of Afghani buildings looks much like a spilled box of children's blocks of various sizes. In the US, there are very obvious signs of a building's function, such as ambulances coming and going, huge lighted signs, and even decorative elements like huge crosses for those owned by religious orders. And they are prominently placed on extremely detailed maps. In Afghanistan, not so much. And buildings are often crammed closely together.

So if a team is receiving fire from in or near a hospital, they may not know it's a hospital, or they may actually be taking fire from it. They must now identify the target, and that's often very difficult to do. Their air support can indeed drop a smart bomb with pinpoint precision, but the explosion is not so cooperative. The blast radius isn't predictable and the locally-acquired shrapnel could be almost anything, and go almost anywhere. "Surgical" strikes are nearly impossible in densely populated ares that have not been evacuated.

This is nowhere near a new problem for the military. Ever since the invention of the cannon, gunners on the ground and in the air have labored to hit targets with precision from a distance, because those targets are often very near their own troops. Modern weapons are tremendously better at it, but not perfect. In a war, undeserving people die. We've never found a way to prevent that. It's one reason why modern war is so abhorrent. It's not a matter of right or wrong, or of indignation. It's inevitable, and we can be surprised that it hasn't happened more often.
#14606826
Drlee wrote:...the sooner the Taliban is eliminated the sooner kind of stuff will stop.


The sooner the Irish are eliminated, the sooner the British Empire will be able to stop genociding people.

The sooner the Cherokee are eliminated, the sooner Americans will stop genociding other nations.

Tell me, what does "soon" mean in your world? Does it mean the same thing that "the peace process" means to Israeli arms merchants?
#14606830
abu_rashid wrote:What a load of nonsense. This was 100% deliberate. The U.S knew full well it was an MSF hospital, their systems are so accurate they could've hit the bell on the reception desk if they wanted to. I can't believe anyone would honestly think otherwise.


You have missed the point Abu that a precision weapon is a poor substitute for accurate targeting.

The accusation that the strike was deliberate is at this point unsupported. The US operates under strict rules of engagement, if the hospital was marked (the extent of which we do not know yet), then this would obviously be a breach of those rules and whoever was authorizing those strikes at the time may well face disciplinary action.

If the hospital was not marked (which is what I suspect) then there needs to be an investigation to find out why this information even after being supplied was not properly recorded. There also needs to be an investigation on why it took so long before MSF's information filtered up to get the attack halted.

taltom wrote:Ever since the invention of the cannon, gunners on the ground and in the air have labored to hit targets with precision from a distance, because those targets are often very near their own troops. Modern weapons are tremendously better at it, but not perfect. In a war, undeserving people die. We've never found a way to prevent that. It's one reason why modern war is so abhorrent. It's not a matter of right or wrong, or of indignation. It's inevitable, and we can be surprised that it hasn't happened more often.


Well said.
#14606842
MSF have stated that they've given their exact GPS co-ordinates several times to the U.S


Well that was an error. Why would anyone do something so dim? Americans would see anyone healing Afghans (as opposed to killing them) as an enemy and target them based on that.
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