Why are the US and Japan Still Allies? - Page 3 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Ongoing wars and conflict resolution, international agreements or lack thereof. Nationhood, secessionist movements, national 'home' government versus internationalist trends and globalisation.

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#14684353
Godstud wrote: Do you have any sources, or facts, to back it up. Your opinion is simply not enough to confirm that Germany is occupied, as it falls under heresay, and is not evidence in, and of, itself. I hope you can understand that.


Godstud wrote:I know quite a few German friends who live nearby, and I'll ask them if your theory holds water, or not. I have a very good feeling
Back at you. My hearsay is as good as yours.
#14684410
Frollien wrote:Back at you. My hearsay is as good as yours.
I know

USA occupied Germany from 1945- 1949
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied-occupied_Germany

Germany has their own government, which is not a proxy for the USA. There is no evidence of this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany%E ... _relations

I think your perception of occupied, is very different from the reality. Pretending Germany and Japan are occupied is ABSURD.

robohistorian wrote:Just wake up dude, you are in a sleeping cell:)
You call that an argument? Wake up and take off the foil hat!
#14684567
Perhaps the issue here is that some of us are lacking the conceptual clarity to express what is going on. For me, the US is not physically occupying Germany and Japan and shaping their politics, as some of you seem to be insinuating. However, it is evident that US still wields power and influence enough to induce these states and limit their policy options. This is simply a product of unipolarity at the level of the international system. You don't need to physically occupy a territory or have domestic collaborators if the lesser powers (in this case, Germany and Japan) are essentially your security intermediaries by virtue of relative material capabilities and overlapping interests (which is a result of economic interdependence and solidarity among the transnational capitalist class). But as for actual, physical occupation? Those ended a long time ago. When you play the game of international politics, you win or you get by occupied by foreign powers. Occupations eventually end, and given enough time, fortunes can reverse.


**warning, rant imminent**

As regards to the conspiratorial claims here (and elsewhere): ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


The conspiratorial mind is simple and advances arguments by posing sophomoric questions, speaking in cryptic language, advancing immature moralistic points, and attempting to rouse fears of internal enemies. Yeah, states use collaborators in places they invade to project power domestically. That's what you are supposed to do. You can have the most powerful army in the world, but without local knowledge and collaborators, your occupation will fail. Take the first Italian invasion of Abyssinia. The technologically superior Italians were soundly defeated by the locals. Then consider the British conquest of the Sudan; they used local collaborators to conquer them. Yes. The Germans? They had their local collaborators in France and the Ukraine. And there were Germans who collaborated with the Allies too! People collaborate with invaders because they have grievances or material interests, which is perfectly normal. I mean, not everyone supported the Nazis to begin with. And consider a contemporary example like Turkey's current ruling party: it is probably more popular than were the Nazis at the height of their popularity. But there were many, many people who simply cooperated with the regime because they were afraid or because they got so used to routine (see Arendt's point about the 'banality of evil'); and some resisted them. I know it is hard for some of you to accept that people can dissent from the "popular will." In the conspiratorial mind, it is impossible for any individual to have agency beyond the interests of powerful and clandestine groups that purportedly run the world! The incredulity with which the conspiratorial mind views skepticism and democratic dissent tells us something very important: that deep down they are immature fascists who do not understand how human relations and societies operate --but they have very strong opinions regardless, and of course they are right! Because they can always pick and choose every piece of information that suits them. Fallacies of reasoning? The difference between causation and correlation? These are but the fanciful inventions of effete collaborators who are pulling thew wool over societies' eyes.

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#14684584
People who calls clear truths as conspiracy theory can generally be found amongst people who has an academic background. Since these people are educated with official lies, their expression of truth is blocked. Because to be an academician, they should submit to official views of the university counsel. Only free mind can question and lead people to truth. So whenever you see someone blaming everybody with conspiracy theories, you may suggest that this person is suffering from lack of free thinking... Just do not limit yourselves to official views and dont buy these bad official and commercial lies.
#14684587
Ahaha, Do you know how many foreign soldiers stationed on German soil? Ahh, sorry... They are there for NATO agreement... Yes, yes, I am sure of that:)


USA occupied Germany from 1945- 1949
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied-occupied_Germany

Germany has their own government, which is not a proxy for the USA. There is no evidence of this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany%E ... _relations

I think your perception of occupied, is very different from the reality. Pretending Germany and Japan are occupied is ABSURD.
#14684622
Ahaha, Do you know how many foreign soldiers stationed on German soil?

Far less than compared to Japan (because of the perceived need to contain China). Just under 10000. German local businesses don't even want them to go because it will be a blow to local economies.

They are there for NATO agreement... Yes, yes, I am sure of that:)

US troops were there before West Germany's inclusion into NATO. However, consequent upgrading of US presence in West Germany was clearly a product of the Cold War. US troop presence in Germany has been declining since the end of the Cold War.

Furthermore, this dynamic lends credence to ideas about creating security interdependence in order to contain powerful states which I mentioned here in an earlier post.

Pretending Germany and Japan are occupied is ABSURD.

I could't agree with you more. I knew you would see reason.
#14684686
Doomhammer wrote: I know it is hard for some of you to accept that people can dissent from the "popular will." In the conspiratorial mind, it is impossible for any individual to have agency beyond the interests of powerful and clandestine groups that purportedly run the world!
An excellent post Doomhammer, the 9/11 truthers couldn't believe Muslim agency was behind the 9/11 attacks. But hold on, note how close George Bush was to the truthers. He also expressed complete incredulity at Muslim agency in the attacks. George Bush was the first "Truther". He was the first to push the idea that the attacks had nothing to do with Islam, the idea that they were perpetrated by a shadowy group of conspirators and manipulators pretending to carry out the attacks in the name of Islam, but really in pursuit of their manichaean agenda.

Bush's conspiracy theory echoed around the world. it has been repeated by Blair, Obama, numerous other western politician and from virtually every social science department in the western world.
#14684745
Robohistorian, you have provided nothing, in the way of evidence, but your own opinion, thus far. You just say, "No it isn't!", and expect people to take that as a reasonable argument. It is not.

You are wrong. Yeah sure... 10,000 troops located in one place, is "occupation", when the country's military is astronomically larger. Sorry. That's not an argument in favour of occupation. That is an argument against occupation.

Godstud wrote:Pretending Germany and Japan are occupied is ABSURD.
Doomhammer, I said that... Robohistorian hasn't figured out the "quotation" use, just yet.
#14685878
Godstud wrote:Doomhammer, I said that... Robohistorian hasn't figured out the "quotation" use, just yet.

I know. I am being cheeky. :D

Rich wrote:He was the first to push the idea that the attacks had nothing to do with Islam, the idea that they were perpetrated by a shadowy group of conspirators and manipulators pretending to carry out the attacks in the name of Islam, but really in pursuit of their manichaean agenda.

True, but as I critical as I am toward Islam, I too have to admit that "Islam" is not a sufficient explanation for 9/11. It is a tragedy however that people are trying to exonerate Islam from its other misdeeds because of liberal guilt.
#14686241
marjy wrote:I think the term Dependency was first coined by the British to denote a colony's military dependence on Great Britain for protection against other would be empire builders.

There's an exquisite irony there one feels.

I don't feel any irony when I read this.

I see this as being the result of European powers turning the entire earth in to a militarized free-for-all during the 19th Century. Basically, the scientific racism and Greed-as-Governance of the Bankster-driven European nations turned the whole planet into a ghetto where every female is a potential whore, and every small nation is a potential colony.

And the well-armed Pimps write the History books for us.
#14686244
Semantics, English can become independent tomorrow, if they so wished.


How would it do that?

It has no Mp's. It has no representation to call for it. How would it happen? Many polls show support for a split is quite high down south but they have noone to vote for. No outlet for these wishes.

So no, you are wrong as usual.
#14690255
Japan is a US colony. Its government is subservient to American interests just as the US itself is governed from Tel Aviv. Why would the Japanese government break away from the US when its leaders loyalty is to the white house not to Japan? Japan will only be independent once the communist party comes to power.
#14693317
They should never be allowed to regain their sovereignty just the same as Germany. They need the allies troops on their soil to keep them honest.
#14693510
Saeko wrote:I came here because I was gonna say this. All that needs to be said, really.

Exactly, yes.

Within a few years of the American occupation of Japan at the conclusion of WW2, the Maoist Communists (a different brand of Communism than Russian Bolshevism) took over mainland China forcing the nationalist Chinese to flee to Formosa aka Taiwan.

Thus Truman decided to forward deploy the Pacific Fleet from Hawaii to Japan -- even more foolishness than Roosevelt's original decision to move them from San Diego.

We are still there. The reason is the same.

The Okinawans want the USA out of their island, but the USMC and USN are not going anywhere anytime soon. So the Japanese simply do not have a choice in the matter. They are still occupied even now but the reason is different.

Someday if Japan returns to naval superpower status like it was back in the early 1900's then the USA can pack up and leave them. However now it would be an open invitation for China to invade the Pacific -- which they will eventually do anyway to get Taiwan back -- but not just yet.

When you are playing king of the mountain, as I am sure everybody here learned in preschool, the guy on the mountain is hard to kick off. Warfare favors the defense, and always has, unless you have a really overwhelming numerical advantage over the defenders.

Who has an overwhelming numerical advantage over China? Anybody? India maybe?
#14693512
Decky wrote:They should never be allowed to regain their sovereignty just the same as Germany. They need the allies troops on their soil to keep them honest.

From what I last heard the USA is now completely OUT of GERMANY other than the USAF hospital in Wiesbaden. I think you missed the memo.

Right now there is nothing stopping Putin from rolling his tanks all the way through Germany and France except the Germans and the French -- not much.

When Gorbachev and Yeltsin were in charge of Russia it was all love and kisses with the USA. Nobody saw Putin coming. So the US withdrew from Europe. Totally different story now with Putin in charge there.
#14693646
From what I last heard the USA is now completely OUT of GERMANY other than the USAF hospital in Wiesbaden. I think you missed the memo.


Who cares? I said the allies for a reason, if I had meant the US that is what I would have said.

British Forces Germany is concentrated in North Rhine-Westphalia. The HQ is located at Bielefeld and 20th Armoured Infantry Brigade is located at Westfalen Garrison. The 20th Armoured Infantry Brigade is currently equipped with Challenger 2 MBTs, Warrior IFVs, AS-90 howitzers, Multiple Launch Rocket Systems, armoured personnel carriers, Gazelle and Lynx helicopters.

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