China-Japan Alliance - Is It Possible? - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14692202
What interests do China and Japan have in the Atlantic?

What interests do they have in common at all?

Leaving aside that under 10% of the respective populations of each country have a favorable view of the other, or that a pro-Japanese policy in China would likely lead to a popular uprising against the CCP, what would the basis of this alliance be? :?:

Old enemies can ally, but only when there is a common threat. The Entente Cordiale is a classic example of this.

What is the common threat to China and Japan?
#14692209
There is none. I was merely thinking about this as a theoretical question.

For example, we know that the United Kingdom can never make an alliance with any strong hegemonic continental power unless it is against another hegemonic continental power. A good example of this would be in both world wars when the British have chosen alliances with Russia against Germany.

The only reason the Entente Cordiale exists is to fight continental threats. France chose to align itself with Anglo-Saxon sea power in order to manage the threat of Germany. If France ever became hegemonic on the continent the Entente Cordiale would end.

But is Japan's geopolitics similar? Do they always have to oppose strong continental powers or can they make alliances with them?
#14692215
The geopolitics of East Asia are different. There already is a hegemonic continental power--China--and there always has been. Japan was founded by colonists from Korea already immersed in Chinese culture, and Japanese classical culture is based on the mostly lost culture of Tang Dynasty China.

The traditional geopolitical arrangement of East Asia is Chinese leadership, with acknowledgement of its first status by the surrounding states. Japan was the first to cease acknowledging the Chinese Emperor as superior to its own, which it could do because it was farther away than Korea and had nothing of value for China.

Because Japan modernized earlier it sought to reverse the traditional relationship by replacing China with itself, which failed. American dominance of Asia followed, but is now fading. The traditional relationship is reemerging, but Japan is seeking to delay this through its alliance with America and improving relations with other states in the region such as India and Australia.

The equivalent in Europe would be if the Roman Empire persevered but lost Britain somehow and conquered Germany, leaving Scandinavia as Korea and Britain as Japan.

Perhaps in a bizarro world in which the Soviet Union won the Cold War or Russia won both the Russo-Japanese War and WW1 then a Chinese-Japanese alliance would make sense. Modern Japanese imperialism was initially most concerned with the threat posed by the Russian Empire. China I believe felt more threatened by the Western seapowers, but perhaps this would not have been the case had the Russians defeated Japan in 1905.
#14692311
It'd be to their great mutual advantage if they could, but the thing is that in the minds of the people on both sides of the equation it's not possible.

There are some Japanese who'd like to see it happen and there are pro-Japan Chinese, but in the minds of the majorities of the respective populations it simply isn't possible, and this informs the political consensus, which is largely of the same effect.

Also, the last time an 'alliance' was tried some 20-30 million Chinese civilians were brutally slaughtered. That's not easily forgotten, especially in parts of the world in which people have very long memories (related to family histories basically).
#14692317
Dave wrote:Perhaps in a bizarro world in which the Soviet Union won the Cold War or Russia won both the Russo-Japanese War and WW1 then a Chinese-Japanese alliance would make sense. Modern Japanese imperialism was initially most concerned with the threat posed by the Russian Empire. China I believe felt more threatened by the Western seapowers, but perhaps this would not have been the case had the Russians defeated Japan in 1905.


Really interesting stuff in your post. Just a note on the last paragraph. The Russo-Japanese War was a result of China cozying up with Russia, which was itself kind of an outcome of China's defeat in the Sino-Japanese War.

You obviously know a lot of the history and I'm not sure if I'm going against anything you wrote, but I suppose I am just an opponent of revisionist history. Things happened as they did due to complex sets of circumstances, and couldn't really have unfolded any differently. In particular, East Asia during the period in question was undergoing dynamic change in a way almost unprecedented in human history.
#14692557
Why would both WANT to do that? For this to occur Japan would need to believe America threatens Japan more than China.

How on Earth is this remotely plausible? Presently Japan views America as a useful ally against Chinese power.

This alliance against "Western sea powers" only makes sense in the context of the mid 19th century, and it didn't happen then.
#14692560
Japan is currently occupied by the US and it does not have any diplomatic freedom to pick its allies. But in the near future, the country could be liberated from Washington and choose its own path as it see fit as a true independent country. The Chinese Communist Party is imposing an anti-Japanese education on its citizens, which is why most Chinese people cannot see Japan as an ally. The end of Communist rule in mainland China is another precondition for the Sino-Japanese rapprochement.
#14692561
No. The cultural animosity is far too strong. Teaching a four year old how to say "Japanese" at an international kindergarten? She refers to them in Chinese using a slur. Ask a class of middle schoolers to make some classroom rules? First thing they come out with is "No Japanese". It's half tongue-in-cheek and half very serious.

Beyond the cultural animosity, there is no political motivation for either party to do so. Chinese political culture does not allow for sovereignty of nations it considers within its sphere of influence, in the sense understood by the West, and this includes Japan. The Japanese meanwhile, would not tolerate it any better than Britain currently tolerates the European Union. Island nations can be fiercely independent. It could never take on the symbolically subservient role China would demand of them.
#14692804
ThirdTerm wrote:Japan is currently occupied by the US and it does not have any diplomatic freedom to pick its allies. But in the near future, the country could be liberated from Washington and choose its own path as it see fit as a true independent country. The Chinese Communist Party is imposing an anti-Japanese education on its citizens, which is why most Chinese people cannot see Japan as an ally. The end of Communist rule in mainland China is another precondition for the Sino-Japanese rapprochement.


So, the US promotes an anti-Chinese education policy, as well as anti-most other countries in the world.

If you think that is why there are anti-Japan sentiments among a lot of Chinese people you are sorely mistaken.

It's way too large a topic to try to get into, but suffice to say there are plenty of Chinese young men alive today, who've heard their grandmother tell stories of being raped by Japanese soldiers and her husband (dude in question's grandfather) murdered, and perhaps tortured.

For the record (don't think I should need to say so but it is what it is) I'm neither of Japanese nor Chinese ancestory myself, though I've lived in both countries (Japan especially) and speak both languages (Japanese fluently).
#14692808


The media is also playing a major role in instigating anti-Japanese sentiments and it's mandatory in China to broadcast this type of war movies on the special day to commemorate a Chinese victory over Japanese imperialism. More than 200 anti-Japanese movies were made in one year. The CCP is culpable of creating a toxic environment which induced mass anti-Japanese demonstrations in recent years. If you are bombarded with government-sponsored anti-Japanese propaganda on a daily basis, you may actually want to kill a Japanese person, if an opportunity arises.

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