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By Alex Portman
#15047308
It is known that on August 2, 2019, The Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty (INF Treaty) has expired. The US refused to renegotiate the Treaty and announced successful tests of the previously banned Tomahawk missile with a range of 2,500 km.
Washington's next step was Trump's statement about buying the island of Greenland from Denmark where Tomahawks are planned to be placed. Recall that in 1943 on the territory of Greenland was built us Thule air base. Nuclear bombers have been always on alert at this base since the early 1960s. Now on the territory of Thule there is Ballistic Missile Early Warning System (BMEWS).
In 1958, in the North-West of Greenland near the Thule air base, the United States launched the “Iceworm project”. During the project, more than 20 tunnels with a length of 1864 miles were carved, a nuclear reactor was installed and infrastructure facilities were built. It was planned to deploy 600 Intercontinental missiles aimed at the USSR, but work on the project was stopped.
Recently, the Trump administration has increasingly stated its desire to place intercontinental ballistic missiles in the area of Thule air base. Perhaps Trump plans to restart the Iceworm project.
According to Secretary of the Army Ryan McCarthy, Washington plans to deploy new precision Strike missiles and hypersonic missiles with a ballistic warhead in the Thule region by 2020. Previously, such missiles were banned by the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty.
Certainly, the deployment of American missiles on the territory of Greenland will create a direct threat to the security of the Russian Federation. Such a successful deployment of missiles will allow the United States to launch nuclear strikes throughout the Russian Federation from Europe to the Far East and control The Northern Sea Route.
In addition, the intention of the United States is not in the interest of Russia's neighbors, which in turn can lead to discontent, and then an imbalance of forces in the Arctic region.
User avatar
By syr74
#15048342
This discussion isn’t complete without discussing why the U.S. is actually showing interest in Greenland; that reason being that it will give the United States a much stronger position with regard to a co-claim on the expected Northwest Passage developing north of the North American continent. There will be political wrangling over this and military muscle will be flexed on all sides except Canada. It was a mistake to not further nuclear arms limitation treaties moving forward, these weapons are a needless threat at this time so I agree that the U.S. government should be negotiating for much greater limitations here. That said, it doesn’t really have anything to do with the fundamental reason for U.S. interest in Greenland. I felt it important to note the above since it virtually never gets a mention with regard to this situation.
User avatar
By BigSteve
#15048343
Alex Portman wrote:It is known that on August 2, 2019, The Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty (INF Treaty) has expired. The US refused to renegotiate the Treaty and announced successful tests of the previously banned Tomahawk missile with a range of 2,500 km.


When was the Tomahawk banned?
By late
#15048345
BigSteve wrote:
When was the Tomahawk banned?



"The INF was a 1987 pact with the former Soviet Union that banned ground-launched nuclear and conventional ballistic and cruise missiles with ranges of 500 to 5,000 kilometers...


The United States has tested a new ground-based cruise missile that is capable covering 500 kilometers in range, less than three weeks after officially exiting an arms treaty that banned such systems."

https://www.defensenews.com/pentagon/20 ... aty-world/
User avatar
By BigSteve
#15048422
late wrote:"The INF was a 1987 pact with the former Soviet Union that banned ground-launched nuclear and conventional ballistic and cruise missiles with ranges of 500 to 5,000 kilometers...


The United States has tested a new ground-based cruise missile that is capable covering 500 kilometers in range, less than three weeks after officially exiting an arms treaty that banned such systems."

https://www.defensenews.com/pentagon/20 ... aty-world/


I don't know that Tomahawks are ground launched. We carried a pretty extensive complement of them on two Navy ships I was stationed on, one as late as 1997...
By late
#15048440
BigSteve wrote:
I don't know that Tomahawks are ground launched. We carried a pretty extensive complement of them on two Navy ships I was stationed on, one as late as 1997...



"On August 18, 2019, the United States Navy conducted a test flight of a Tomahawk missile launched from a ground-based version of the Mark 41 Vertical Launch System."

Not sure what you think you are doing, but it really ain't happening.
User avatar
By BigSteve
#15048480
late wrote:"On August 18, 2019, the United States Navy conducted a test flight of a Tomahawk missile launched from a ground-based version of the Mark 41 Vertical Launch System."


I'm not finding that sentence in the link you provided. Did I miss it?

What I did see in the link you provided is that the missile used was a variant of the Tomahawk. The Tomahawk, itself, is not, nor has it been, banned...

Not sure what you think you are doing, but it really ain't happening.


I could say the same to you, as you seem to be quite content posting things of which you know little...
By late
#15048521
BigSteve wrote:
What I did see in the link you provided is that the missile used was a variant of the Tomahawk. The Tomahawk, itself, is not, nor has it been, banned...




We could have built a ground based launcher at any time. We didn't because that would have violated INF.
User avatar
By BigSteve
#15048531
late wrote:We could have built a ground based launcher at any time. We didn't because that would have violated INF.


Um, okay.

That has nothing to do with the Tomahawk, though. It's a separate issue. Despite your suggestion to the contrary, the Tomahawk missile has never been banned...
By late
#15048539
BigSteve wrote:
That has nothing to do with the Tomahawk, though. It's a separate issue. Despite your suggestion to the contrary, the Tomahawk missile has never been banned...



"The United States has tested a new ground-based cruise missile that is capable covering 500 kilometers in range, less than three weeks after officially exiting an arms treaty that banned such systems."

That was a quote, not me.

Even there, you managed to also get that wrong. Any intermediate missile ground based system was banned.

System..
User avatar
By BigSteve
#15048559
late wrote:"The United States has tested a new ground-based cruise missile that is capable covering 500 kilometers in range, less than three weeks after officially exiting an arms treaty that banned such systems."

That was a quote, not me.

Even there, you managed to also get that wrong. Any intermediate missile ground based system was banned.

System..


So, I guess that guided missile cruiser I was on, with 40 Tomahawks fore and aft, didn't really have Tomahawks, huh?

Again, the missiles themselves weren't banned. The system which would allow them to be land-launched may have been, but not the missiles. If you look back, you'll see that my comment was with regards to the statement that Tomahawks were banned.

That's just not true...
User avatar
By BigSteve
#15048566
Pants-of-dog wrote:Some Tomahawks were banned because of the INF treaty, while some were not.

Since the OP specifically discusses land based missiles targeting continental Europe and Asia, it is logical to assume that they are discussing the BGM Tomahawk, which was banned in 1991.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/BGM-109 ... se_Missile


It's not logical to assume anything on this forum...
By Pants-of-dog
#15048571
Anyway...

Russia and the US are not just fighting over control of the Northwest Passage, but also oil rights under the Arctic. Two Cold War relics fighting over control of a dying industry. And none of the parties will bother listening to the people who live there.
By late
#15048580
BigSteve wrote:
Again, the missiles themselves weren't banned.




Never said they were, but you know that.

Placed in a ground based launcher they would violate the INF, and you know that as well.

Therefore, troll.
User avatar
By BigSteve
#15048599
late wrote:Never said they were, but you know that.


Yeah, you did:

"The US refused to renegotiate the Treaty and announced successful tests of the previously banned Tomahawk missile with a range of 2,500 km."


You said nothing about launchers, you specified the missile.

For Christ's sake, just admit you were wrong and we can move on...

Placed in a ground based launcher they would violate the INF, and you know that as well...

Therefore, troll.


If I'm a troll, at least I'm a troll who knows a shit-ton more about the subject matter than you do...
By late
#15048611
BigSteve wrote:
If I'm a troll, at least I'm a troll who knows a shit-ton more about the subject matter than you do...



It was a quote, you used the quotation marks. I didn't say it.

Further, the INF deals with ground based launchers, and if a Tomahawk was placed in a ground based launcher (which is what the quote meant) it would be in violation of the INF treaty.

But thanks for proving my point.
User avatar
By BigSteve
#15048652
late wrote:It was a quote, you used the quotation marks. I didn't say it.

Further, the INF deals with ground based launchers, and if a Tomahawk was placed in a ground based launcher (which is what the quote meant) it would be in violation of the INF treaty.

But thanks for proving my point.


Tomahawks were never banned.

Ever...
By Pants-of-dog
#15048704
Some were banned. Some were not.

More importantly, Russian and US interference in the Arctic is basically the new phase of imperialism.

Yanqui, go home. You too, tovarisch.
By late
#15048707
BigSteve wrote:
Tomahawks were never banned.

Ever...



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