Deterrence Is Also About Interests and Not Just About Swift, Severe, Punishment - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15293206
Here is a quote from an article regarding deterrence theory and how interests also plays a part in deterrence. This also reminds me of Game Theory in which in both economic bargaining, negotiating and in the case of deterrence between nations, making threat credible in the eyes of your adversary is important too. You have to make a threat that is actually credible. They touch on the concept of credible threats in this article below.

Michael Rühle of NATO Review wrote:Deterrence is making a comeback. Perceived by many as a mere relic of the Cold War, the Russia-Ukraine crisis has hastened its resurrection. However, the debate over the past months as to how best to deter Russia reveals that 20 years of neglect have taken their toll. Much of what was once considered basic knowledge on deterrence appears to have evaporated. What, then, is deterrence? What can it achieve – and what can it not?

Deterrence is the threat of force in order to discourage an opponent from taking an unwelcome action. This can be achieved through the threat of retaliation (deterrence by punishment) or by denying the opponent’s war aims (deterrence by denial). This simple definition often leads to the conclusion that all it takes to deter is to put enough force on display. As long as both sides act “rationally”, i.e. according to a cost-benefit calculus, and if none of them is suicidal, their military potentials will keep each other in check.

If only it were so easy. History abounds with examples of deterrence failing despite a balance of forces, and even cases in which the weaker side attacked the stronger. In some cases, the weaker side banked on the element of surprise. The military leadership of Imperial Japan, for example, was fully aware of US military superiority. But if a surprise attack on the Pearl Harbor naval base would destroy a major part of the US Pacific Fleet while paralysing Washington politically, Japan might stand a chance of prevailing. In 1973 Syria and Egypt attacked the militarily superior Israel – not because they hoped to win, but because they wanted to re-establish the political clout they had lost after Israel had defeated them in the 1967 Six-Day-War. Israel had not seen the attack coming: why would two militarily inferior countries even think of attacking an opponent that was certain to emerge victorious? This self-assuredness led Israel to ignore the many warning signals about a pending attack. As a result, the rapidly advancing armies of Egypt and Syria were initially much more successful than expected. Military superiority had not ensured deterrence.

Another important example for the pitfalls of deterrence is provided by the 1982 Falklands War. Argentina, which contests the United Kingdom’s authority over the islands in the South Atlantic, knew only too well about the superiority of the British armed forces. However, over the course of several decades the UK had gradually been reducing its military protection for the islands. Thus, while London kept emphasising that the Falklands were British, the military Junta in Buenos Aires became convinced that such statements were mere lip service. When the Junta faced a domestic crisis that threatened its rule, it tried to generate support by stirring patriotic feelings and occupied the islands. Deterrence had failed because the United Kingdom had ignored an important factor. Striking a tough pose while at the same time reducing the means to make good on it undermines one of deterrence’s most important ingredients: credibility. The story did not end there, however. Much to Argentina’s surprise, the British Navy sailed to the South Atlantic and re-conquered the islands. General Galtieri, the Chief of Argentina’s military Junta, later admitted that he never believed that a European country would be ready to pay such a high price for a few insignificant islands so far away. Argentina, too, had miscalculated.

But could Galtieri and his fellow countrymen not have guessed that a proud nation like the United Kingdom would not stand idly by as part of her overseas territory was being occupied by another power? Should one not have known that remaining passive would have spelled the end for any British government? The answer: yes, in normal times Argentina may well have pondered such scenarios. However, in a crisis humans tend to think along a different kind of logic. Indeed, many studies about human behaviour demonstrate that people who fear to lose something valuable are ready to take greater risks than those who hope to make a gain. In the context of the Falklands War, this means that for the Junta, which was under siege politically, occupying the “Malvinas” was not about a gain, but rather about avoiding losing power. This made them take risks they otherwise would not have dared to take. Rationality – a precondition for a stable deterrence system – had evaporated.

Looking at Russian domestic politics today, the lessons of 1982 are worth reconsidering: stirring nationalism in order to generate political support may lead one to military adventurism which can be self-defeating.

All these cases demonstrate that deterrence is not just about military balances, but also about interests. If the opponent’s interest in achieving a certain objective is higher than one’s own, deterrence may fail. A classic example is the Cuban missile crisis of 1962. When it became clear that Washington was ready to defend its core security interests, the Soviet Union withdrew the missiles it had started to deploy in Cuba. Another example is the Vietnam War. Although the United States was militarily far superior, it ultimately had to withdraw because the North Vietnamese and the Vietcong were willing to make much greater sacrifices to achieve their goals than the US was willing to make in support of South Vietnam. This asymmetric set of interests not only makes deterrence fail, it also makes big powers lose small wars.

But what about nuclear deterrence? Should the fear of the enormous destructive power of such weapons not be enough to virtually guarantee deterrence? The answer to this question is the same as to the “conventional” examples cited above: even in the nuclear domain, deterrence depends on the interests that one seeks to protect. If a nation’s existence is at stake, the use of nuclear weapons is credible. Accordingly, deterrence between nuclear weapons states is considered to be relatively “stable”. By contrast, extending one’s national nuclear deterrence to allies is much more complicated. As British Defence Minister Denis Healey put it in the 1960s, one only needed five per cent credibility to deter the Russians, but 95 per cent to reassure the Europeans. Despite this “Healey Theorem”, however, extended nuclear deterrence has become a central pillar of international order. This is not only the case for NATO, but also for the Asia-Pacific region, where Japan, South Korea and Australia are under the US “nuclear umbrella”.

It is moot to speculate whether the United States would indeed be willing to risk nuclear escalation in order to protect an Ally. What counts is the political signal that Washington views the security of its Allies as a fundamental national security interest. However, such a message will only be convincing if the US is militarily present in those regions that is claims to defend. This ensures that in a conflict Washington will be involved from the start. Without such a presence, neither Allies nor opponents would perceive such a nuclear commitment as credible.


https://www.nato.int/docu/review/articl ... index.html
#15293212
Old as any conflict I imagine.
https://acoup.blog/2019/12/05/collections-a-trip-through-thucydides-fear-honor-and-interest/

Tit for tat is effective as a warning that you are a credible threat and people who break the rules shouldn’t fuck around because they’ll fond out.
#15293214
@Wellsy

I do agree with your assessment and this was the reason why I feel Israel did the right thing by really taking it to Gaza. That way, the Arab world perceives severe Israeli retaliation as a credible threat they have to take seriously. This enhances deterrence as well in my opinion. It also works to prevent future conflict too.
#15293250
I would emphasize how ever that the above theory is international relations realist thinking of states and may not directly tract onto terrorist organizations.

There can be a different logic in such actions, especially considering the circumstances of Hamas.

For example, it’s not clear Israel’s method is effective as deterence as they have been long at Killing Palestinians and what we now find is a lot of public sympathy for dead civilians and hostility towards Israel’s tactical decisions and the harshness of their actions and rhetoric.

Even amidst killing Israeli civilians by Hamas, there is a lot of sympathy for the Palestinians and the only thing holding back any real restraint on Israel has primarily been the US but now some other western states in Vetoing allowing aid and such.
#15293251
@Wellsy

Yeah but if Israel doesn't respond then that will be an invitation for other terrorist organizations and Arab countries to attack Israel as well because they will perceive that the costs of attacking Israel would be acceptable given any lack of response to Hamas launching a surprise attack on them.

It's kinda like being in prison, if you don't stand up for yourself or fight when attacked then other prisoners view as a bitch and will proceed to steal from you, extort you, attack you, violate you until you have no self respect. And losing a fight, so long as you fight and stand up for yourself, you won't lose any standing among other prisoners even if you lose, so long as you stood up for yourself and fought.

Other prisoners will see there is a cost for attacking you or trying to take advantage of you,even if you lose the fight, and will think twice about trying to attack or take advantage of you regardless. It works the same way between countries.
#15293259
I see the logic of deterrence theory, I just don’t see that it applies in the case of Israel and Palestine.

The big issue being that I think it assumes a certain type rational thinking or motivation that doesn’t tract to the underpinnings of terrorism or even guerilla warfare in larger contexts.
https://trace.tennessee.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1304&context=utk_gradthes#:~:text=From%20the%20deterrent%20perspective%2C%20terrorism,choice)%20informs%20our%20counterterrorism%20strategy.
Conclusion
This chapter offered a critique of rational choice and routine activities theories by giving examples of the problematic nature of methodological individualism and instrumentalism. In particular, the lack of attention paid to the role of motivation within both theories was explicated. I demonstrated that deterrence does not enable us to analyze structural motivation or its relationship to individual actors; a connection that is necessary given the global context of terrorism. Finally, alternative theories of terrorism offer ways to move beyond the confines of the rational actor model of understanding terrorism. The following chapter addresses the consequences of our continued use of deterrence as a counterterrorism strategy.


Why think Hamas is acting under a kind of economic cost benefit analysis reasoning when they take pot shots at Israel as entire neighborhoods are blown to shit in Gaza?
The individual cost benefit rationale that deterrence theory assumes terrorists operate under eliminates the political context of terrorism. Therefore, within rational choice theory, terrorist acts are not part of a larger political project. In fact, rational choice theory places an emphasis on economic and material goals. As Moghaddam (2006:24) suggests, it is certainly possible that terrorists are rationally motivated to gain geographic territories or even material or natural resources. However, in the process of committing terrorist acts, terrorists often destroy material resources and sometimes destroy themselves. He suggests that acts such as suicidal terrorism are inconsistent with materialist motivation. Therefore, the deterrence paradigm removes terrorist acts out of the political realm. By rethinking terrorist explanations, we change how we interpret terrorist acts i.e. politically. For instance, a deterrence approach to terrorism does not facilitate the inclusion of political and structural inequalities into the terrorism discourse; thereby making terrorism apolitical. Conversely, when terrorism is understood within a global context, not only are the structural inequalities revealed, but the political context of terrorism, by definition becomes apparent.

https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Something_worth_dying_for.pdf
How is it that people go, willing to sacrifice their lives, to a conflict apparently so far from their everyday concerns? Scott Atran (2014) conducted face-to-face surveys in a community in Morocco which had provided many foreign fighters, and in Lebanon amongst Shia, Sunni and Christians. He tested subjects’ attitudes including their willingness to sacrifice themselves in war and their attitude towards others who do so. His research has the merit that he spoke to people who might or might not become foreign fighters and who were acquainted with the practice at first hand.
Atran’s hypothesis is that the coincidence of two factors make for the readiness to become a foreign fighter and/or approve of others in the community who do so. These two factors are (1) “identity fusion” with a larger group whose welfare may be threatened, and (2) holding a “sacred value.”
A sacred value is something that motivates a person’s actions but which transcends any material interest, such as King and Country or Socialism. A sacred value is something abstract and remote from the close personal ties which commonly motivate sacrifice of individual material interest. Identity fusion refers to a person whose identity is wholly subsumed by a collectivity, whether a nation or religious community or a family or group of close comrades. A subject’s identity is fused with a group if the subject cannot see themselves apart from the relevant bonded identity group. The combination of these two factors is entailed when the group to which a person’s identity is fused is united by a sacred value, when we-all are fighting for the same thing. In the event that there is a threat to the sacred value uniting the social group to which the person’s identity is fused, then that person would be prepared to die defending the interests of that group, even if they are the last one standing.
A person may have a strong personal belief, but so long as that that belief is just personal, and not an ideal shared by and constituting a community of others, it cannot motivate extreme sacrifice.


Think of it even in personal terms, if someone killed a family member of yours and not even in some reckless way but you felt intentionally, would you be strictly deterred that they had more resources to shoot you down or might you still throw your elf i to trying to hurt them however you could.

Counterterrorism based on deterrence theory seems to in fact enflame conditions of terrorism than deter it because its not about showing atrength but undercutting the basis and support for the tit for tat motivation. People will sometimes endure a great deal of suffering and sacrifice in pursuit of vengeance, to the point that it seems irrational due to how much they hurt themselves in the process.
#15293265
Wellsy wrote:I see the logic of deterrence theory, I just don’t see that it applies in the case of Israel and Palestine.

[…]

Why think Hamas is acting under a kind of economic cost benefit analysis reasoning when they take pot shots at Israel as entire neighborhoods are blown to shit in Gaza?

[…]

Think of it even in personal terms, if someone killed a family member of yours and not even in some reckless way but you felt intentionally, would you be strictly deterred that they had more resources to shoot you down or might you still throw your elf i to trying to hurt them however you could.

Counterterrorism based on deterrence theory seems to in fact enflame conditions of terrorism than deter it because its not about showing atrength but undercutting the basis and support for the tit for tat motivation. People will sometimes endure a great deal of suffering and sacrifice in pursuit of vengeance, to the point that it seems irrational due to how much they hurt themselves in the process.

“Before you embark on a journey of revenge, first dig two graves - one for your enemy, and one for yourself.” - Confucius

It seems to me that most terrorists understand this point from the outset, and have accepted it. The West, including Israel, seem not to have understood it, probably because we have been brought up as selfish little consumers in a capitalist economy, who always choose the course of action which will gain us the most material or financial benefit under a rational cost/benefit analysis. Any other way of thinking or feeling is fundamentally alien to us.
#15293267
@Wellsy @Potemkin

Well if terrorists cannot be deterred, then you have to either destroy them or severely weaken them to the point where they are not much of a threat such as was done with ISIS and Al-Queda.

But I think terrorist organizations can be deterred. It's just that with Hamas, when they saw that Israel and Saudia Arabia were coming close to normalized relations they felt that severely threatened their interests given that their interests were being forgotten about. Hence why they struck.

They were hoping to derail Saudi and Israeli normalization of relations. But this brings us back to the point of the original post that deterrence is about interests too.
#15293270
Neo wrote:@Wellsy @Potemkin

Well if terrorists cannot be deterred, then you have to either destroy them or severely weaken them to the point where they are not much of a threat such as was done with ISIS and Al-Queda.

But I think terrorist organizations can be deterred. It's just that with Hamas, when they saw that Israel and Saudia Arabia were coming close to normalized relations they felt that severely threatened their interests given that their interests were being forgotten about. Hence why they struck.

They were hoping to derail Saudi and Israeli normalization of relations. But this brings us back to the point of the original post that deterrence is about interests too.

Will Hamas’ attack deter Israel and Saudi Arabia from normalising their relations in the long term? And if deterrence will not work against Israel and Saudi Arabia, then what makes you think it will work against Hamas? :eh:
#15293273
@Potemkin

What do you mean? Saudia Arabia hasn't attacked Israel and even if relations are not normalized between Saudia Arabia and Israel, I doubt Saudia Arabia would attack Israel, especially since they are rivals with Iran and Iran and Israel are mortal enemies.

Hamas attacked Israel in the hopes of derailiIng normalization between Israel and Saudia Arabia since it would force Israel to respond. That would force Arabs to still consider Palestinian interests instead of being forgotten and pushed aside.
#15293275
@Potemkin
It does hold some validity to think of motivations in such terms, and I see it used to argue for a change in international relations where many are invested in the status quo of US empire.

https://acoup.blog/2023/07/07/collections-the-status-quo-coalition/
The idea being instability of a hegemony would readily lead to coordinated effort to bring down a hegemony and then enact a balancing act of no power achieving hegemony. The idea put forth now many don’t support the US nor revisionist powers because they see little gain in siding with either and are driven by domestic development and gain little through conflict. It is an interesting argument and still leaves room for ideological, “irrational” state actors motivated by other reasons.

Neo wrote:@Wellsy @Potemkin

Well if terrorists cannot be deterred, then you have to either destroy them or severely weaken them to the point where they are not much of a threat such as was done with ISIS and Al-Queda.

But I think terrorist organizations can be deterred. It's just that with Hamas, when they saw that Israel and Saudia Arabia were coming close to normalized relations they felt that severely threatened their interests given that their interests were being forgotten about. Hence why they struck.

They were hoping to derail Saudi and Israeli normalization of relations. But this brings us back to the point of the original post that deterrence is about interests too.

Well the rhetoric of the Israeli government at the moment does suggest they seek to destroy Palestinians ability to do anything and are going to drive them out if not kill them all. So it may come to a brutal end amidst ongoing years of blood.

And yes the point of what motivates peoples actions being the cost benefit analysis is important and I agree the consideration of interest plays an important role exactly where deterrence theory fails.
Though interest is still often thought of in terms of material gains.
https://acoup.blog/2019/12/05/collections-a-trip-through-thucydides-fear-honor-and-interest/
Greek has a few words for fear, of which phobos (φόβος; the root of our word ‘phobia’) is the most familiar to English speakers; but Thucydides here uses deos (δέος). Where phobos is an unreasoning terrified panic (the fear of the sudden onset of battle, for instance), deos is a more general word – more a dread of or a desire to avoid a thing to come in the future. It has a greater sense of reality and reason – deos can be a reasoning, well-informed fear about future events, even quite distant ones. Thucydides is thus not asserting a ‘right to panic’ but a right to look forward to future dangers and act in advance to preempt them. In this sense, the motive of fear means that states will try to – and have a right to – proactively avert negative future outcomes for themselves. In particular, fear comes first because the primary concern of all states is survival. We might sum up fear by then saying that Thucydides contends states will fight to exist.

The word here translated as interest, ophelia (ὠφέλεια) has a number of meanings, such as ‘help’ or ‘aid’ (which is why it is sometimes used as a given name, as in Hamlet), but also ‘profit, advantage, gain’ or even ‘loot’ or ‘spoils’ (as in, stuff seized in war). Ophelia is a thing you get – by any means – which renders you better off. Thus interest, in this context, means that states will pursue their own gain or profit – or that of their citizens – at the expense of other states. Naturally, the ophelia of one state must often interfere with the deos of another – my greedy eyes looking over your resources may cause you to fear me.

Palestine is more about struggling to survive than any achievable goal of regaining what it lost to Israel, or maybe it is a stubborn hatred for pain caused by Israel. Hamas seems to be about violent resistance which rejects Israel’s claims to the land.

I am not familiar with the motivations as it has a big messy history.
#15293277
Neo wrote:@Potemkin

What do you mean? Saudia Arabia hasn't attacked Israel and even if relations are not normalized between Saudia Arabia and Israel, I doubt Saudia Arabia would attack Israel, especially since they are rivals with Iran and Iran and Israel are mortal enemies.

This is precisely my point. And Hamas cannot deter them from acting in their own mutual self-interest in the long term. Deterrence often doesn’t work even against rational actors, and still less will it work against ‘irrational’ actors.

Hamas attacked Israel in the hopes of derailiIng normalization between Israel and Saudia Arabia since it would force Israel to respond. That would force Arabs to still consider Palestinian interests instead of being forgotten and pushed aside.

In the short term, yes. But in the long term, that strategy will fail.
#15293280
@Potemkin

I always thought the point of a terrorist act was to draw a disproportionate response.

Making Deterrence theory irrelevant as the more disproportionate the response, the better.
#15293288
Wellsy wrote:I would emphasize how ever that the above theory is international relations realist thinking of states and may not directly tract onto terrorist organizations.

There can be a different logic in such actions, especially considering the circumstances of Hamas.

For example, it’s not clear Israel’s method is effective as deterence as they have been long at Killing Palestinians and what we now find is a lot of public sympathy for dead civilians and hostility towards Israel’s tactical decisions and the harshness of their actions and rhetoric.

Even amidst killing Israeli civilians by Hamas, there is a lot of sympathy for the Palestinians and the only thing holding back any real restraint on Israel has primarily been the US but now some other western states in Vetoing allowing aid and such.


Thus far, only the far left has shown "a lot of sympathy" for Palestinians. And it's backfiring, specially in the US.

One thesis about Hamas is that ruling over Gaza would make it akin to a state in its behavior, since it would be responsible for their subjects. I think Hamas doesn't really care all that much about Gazans but they do care about themselves.

I do think Hamas was deterred for a while, at least, so one may wonder what changed their calculation. I can think 3 options:

a) Iran promised them they'd have their back if they launched a big attack against Israel, and that Israel will be forced to fight a two front war with Iran's proxies Hezbollah and Assad.

Thus far, Iran has not delivered on its promise and, as far as ideology is concerned, Iran's islamism is not really the same or compatible with Hamas' in the long term. Hamas was also a bad ally when the Syrian civil war began, as it remained neutral and did not support Assad because the Muslim Brotherhood sided with the opposition.

Furthermore, Iran isn't keen on an Israeli-Saudi deal but it can live with it. What Iran can't live with is losing the Shia Crescent spanning from Iran all the way to Lebanon and Iran would rather keep the crescent than lose it for the sake of keeping influence in Gaza. I assume Hamas understands this.

b) Hamas underestimated itself and believed their operation wouldn't be as successful as it was. Maybe it didn't expect to kill 1300+ civilians and kidnap 200+. Maybe it believed it would kill and kidnap far less, leading to a softer Israeli response and to a greater domestic and foreign political gain.

c) Another actor that is more ideologically aligned with Hamas, and on which Hamas depends for its long term survival, pressured it to launch the attack. The obvious two options are Turkey and Qatar.

I am having trouble thinking Erdogan has any urgent interest on this war, but the prospect of escalation could open opportunities for him both domestically and abroad. I don't rule it out, but...

...Qatar, on the other hand, does have an urgent interest in derailing, or at least delaying, Israeli-Saudi negotiations. Qatar is surrounded by Saudi Arabia and Bahrain, and doesn't get along with either. Have we forgotten the quasi-blockade of Qatar by Saudi Arabia? If Saudi Arabia hasn't moved more decisively against Qatar it's at least in part because it doesn't want to start a war with one of Qatar's allies, Iran. Yet what would happen if Israel and Saudi Arabia were formally allies?

Qatar also has a lot of leverage on, and ideological affinity with, Hamas, there's a reason why the top leadership lives there (and not in Iran, mind you). Qatar is generally supportive of the Muslim Brotherhood in general (of which Hamas is just the Palestine branch), which has also gained it enemies beyond the Gulf (like Egypt).

If I had to bet, Hamas decided to carry out the attack because of a combination between b) and c), and maybe also gambling on whether Iran would also assist it in some way.
#15293294
wat0n wrote:
Spoiler: show
Thus far, only the far left has shown "a lot of sympathy" for Palestinians. And it's backfiring, specially in the US.

One thesis about Hamas is that ruling over Gaza would make it akin to a state in its behavior, since it would be responsible for their subjects. I think Hamas doesn't really care all that much about Gazans but they do care about themselves.

I do think Hamas was deterred for a while, at least, so one may wonder what changed their calculation. I can think 3 options:

a) Iran promised them they'd have their back if they launched a big attack against Israel, and that Israel will be forced to fight a two front war with Iran's proxies Hezbollah and Assad.

Thus far, Iran has not delivered on its promise and, as far as ideology is concerned, Iran's islamism is not really the same or compatible with Hamas' in the long term. Hamas was also a bad ally when the Syrian civil war began, as it remained neutral and did not support Assad because the Muslim Brotherhood sided with the opposition.

Furthermore, Iran isn't keen on an Israeli-Saudi deal but it can live with it. What Iran can't live with is losing the Shia Crescent spanning from Iran all the way to Lebanon and Iran would rather keep the crescent than lose it for the sake of keeping influence in Gaza. I assume Hamas understands this.

b) Hamas underestimated itself and believed their operation wouldn't be as successful as it was. Maybe it didn't expect to kill 1300+ civilians and kidnap 200+. Maybe it believed it would kill and kidnap far less, leading to a softer Israeli response and to a greater domestic and foreign political gain.

c) Another actor that is more ideologically aligned with Hamas, and on which Hamas depends for its long term survival, pressured it to launch the attack. The obvious two options are Turkey and Qatar.

I am having trouble thinking Erdogan has any urgent interest on this war, but the prospect of escalation could open opportunities for him both domestically and abroad. I don't rule it out, but...

...Qatar, on the other hand, does have an urgent interest in derailing, or at least delaying, Israeli-Saudi negotiations. Qatar is surrounded by Saudi Arabia and Bahrain, and doesn't get along with either. Have we forgotten the quasi-blockade of Qatar by Saudi Arabia? If Saudi Arabia hasn't moved more decisively against Qatar it's at least in part because it doesn't want to start a war with one of Qatar's allies, Iran. Yet what would happen if Israel and Saudi Arabia were formally allies?

Qatar also has a lot of leverage on, and ideological affinity with, Hamas, there's a reason why the top leadership lives there (and not in Iran, mind you). Qatar is generally supportive of the Muslim Brotherhood in general (of which Hamas is just the Palestine branch), which has also gained it enemies beyond the Gulf (like Egypt).

If I had to bet, Hamas decided to carry out the attack because of a combination between b) and c), and maybe also gambling on whether Iran would also assist it in some way.

My impression is a distinction between governments and citizens such that not many sympathize with Hamas or the Israeli government but are concerned about the citizens amidst the conflict.
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2022/05/26/modest-warming-in-u-s-views-on-israel-and-palestinians/
Indeed the right wing is favorable to Israeli people, the Israeli government and a one state Israeli government. But that doesn’t mean sympathizers with Palestinians are just far lefties.

Reasonable speculation, I did speculate whether the uptick was partly pressured by Iran.
#15293306
Wellsy wrote:My impression is a distinction between governments and citizens such that not many sympathize with Hamas or the Israeli government but are concerned about the citizens amidst the conflict.
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2022/05/26/modest-warming-in-u-s-views-on-israel-and-palestinians/
Indeed the right wing is favorable to Israeli people, the Israeli government and a one state Israeli government. But that doesn’t mean sympathizers with Palestinians are just far lefties.

Reasonable speculation, I did speculate whether the uptick was partly pressured by Iran.


This war changed the trends, support for Israel in the US has increased in all segments except the far left.
#15293312
Going back to deterrence theory, I think it's reasonable but one needs to understand the incentives of each actor here. I think that's one of the largest difficulties since in the real world the interests of each actor may not be as clear as one would think.

What's the internal political situation in Gaza before the war? Was Hamas facing any important opposition? It seems not, but we don't know if there was clandestine activity against it.

Which regional actor has most leverage on Hamas? I don't think we know, we have a broad idea on who supports who but we don't know the specifics here. That makes any analyses using deterrence theory much harder, maybe the one that needed to be deterred wasn't Hamas but one of its multiple patrons.
#15293322
ingliz wrote:@Potemkin

I always thought the point of a terrorist act was to draw a disproportionate response.

Making Deterrence theory irrelevant as the more disproportionate the response, the better.

But all the rhetoric so far has been about deterrence, which as you say is actually irrelevant in this situation (for both sides). The public discourse is therefore nonsensical.
#15293339
Potemkin wrote:“Before you embark on a journey of revenge, first dig two graves - one for your enemy, and one for yourself.” - Confucius

It seems to me that most terrorists understand this point from the outset, and have accepted it. The West, including Israel, seem not to have understood it, probably because we have been brought up as selfish little consumers in a capitalist economy, who always choose the course of action which will gain us the most material or financial benefit under a rational cost/benefit analysis. Any other way of thinking or feeling is fundamentally alien to us.


The problem with people who identify with colonists and not the colonized is that they think that people who are sick and tired of always losing to a group with more firepower, propaganda power and lies and money? Just do not understand that once there is a threshold reached of nothing left to lose? You get radicalization of the population. Not all of course. But you get people who lost their entire families in these bombings and so on. Young men without jobs, without hope, without wives or anything. So why not just go and be part of a violent group and target US targets, Israeli tragets, and become terroristic?

Really people who do not understand how bad it is to remain without power and essential self-rule and dignified living. You are forced to beg, grovel, and plead with some horrible assholes who hate your group and malign your existence. They will get to the point of not only being corrupted but they will take up crazy schemes that seem illogical to the ones living with dignity and resources.

That is how radicalization happens. Again, you avoid that radicalization with humane foreign policies and being about equality and cooperation for building together. After a long conflict that takes a long time. But you have to be committed to that path. Otherwise, there is no end in sight to these types of conflicts.
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