[Titus Andronicus]

Hi all...


This is a thread I intend to start simultanously in different places.

It talks about conspiration theories, and the point is to suggest a kind of "gedankenexperiment". About this:

>A theory claims that "Roosevelt knew" that the attack on Pearl Harbor was going to happen. Well then, my suggestion is as follows: can you please develop what would had happen, in your opinion, if Pearl Harbor had been foreseen & appropiate measures had been taken in advance? Was there a way to avoid the implication of the USA in a war with Japan?

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>A second theory claims that the building on the WTC of NYC where demolished. But I suggest the following mental experiment: can you please elaborate what would had happen, in your opinon, if the towers just had burned (likely for days) yet didn't collapsed? Would had this changed any of the ensuing events (Afghanistan, Iraq, WOT, et cetera)?


My position is that some events in history behave like "knots", and just cutting one thread of them won't harm the knot -the event would happen and the consequences would be very the same. That is, that the war with Japan was unavoidable (by human means) whatever the American course of action was; or that the consequences of 9/11 would had been the same if the towers just had burned rather than collapsed.

Conspiracy theorists love to ask other people to be "open minded" and "imaginative". Well then, that's your challenge: be "open minded" and "imaginative" about the real need of conspirations about Pearl Harbor and 9/11.

I 'll be waiting for answers as these two CT look really silly to me.

[Fortaleza]

There is a conspiracy theory(i don't believe it) that USA delayed the invasion of Germany in World War 2 as Germany had invaded Russia and they feared Russia and communism more than Germany. Thus by delaying the invasion to Germany, they could ensure that Russia had its battle arms by the conflict with Germany. Once they realised that Russia had won they hurriedly decided on the French landing. The theory goes, that imagine all the jewish people who could have been saved in the concentration camps if USA had ended the war earlier and that is why USA is so friendly with Israel. Anyway, I don;t believe this theory but that is the conspiracy theory.

So titus, going along with your experiment, if the war had of ended in say 1943, before the Russian fightback, then USA and England would have germany to cut up for themselves. All eastern bloc countries like Poland, Czech republic, Hungary etc would be under weatern rule or self ruled. There would not have been as big cold war.History would have been changed.

Anyway, not sure if this is the kind of thing you were looking for.

[Spin]

Quite the opposite, the US wanted to invade France in 42 under Super Gymnast but it was the UK who actually pushed for it to be postponed.

It's a pretty bad conspiracy theory.

[Fortaleza]

Spinner, I told you I didn't believe it. I said it was a conspiracy theory, I didn't say it was a good one.

I was trying to help Titus with his theory. Do you have any that you can add to it?

[Spin]

can you please develop what would had happen, in your opinion, if Pearl Harbor had been foreseen & appropiate measures had been taken in advance?

There was no such thing as appropriate measures WRT Pearl Harbour. The US was doomed to lose the battle because their aerial tactics were not up to scratch when they came up against the zero. In fact, some historians believe Pearl Harbour to be the best possible way that the thing could have gone.

Was there a way to avoid the implication of the USA in a war with Japan?

No, both wanted war.

[starman2003]

some historians believe Pearl Harbor to be the best possible way for the thing to have gone

It could have gone a lot better if US forces there were alert and the carriers were nearby to pounce on the Japanese while their planes were attacking Oahu. It might've gone like Midway, 6 months ahead of schedule.

[Spin]

Except IIRC the US had not developed the fighter tactics necessary to combat the zero. The F4F would have been outclassed had there been any zeros in the area. I would imagine that the Japanese had zeros providing CAP over the fleet. Or at least fighters in the area that could have been deployed to defend the carriers.

And the US would have been tempted to launch their battleships against the Jap fleet, which could well have meant annhilation of the Pacific fleet.

[starman2003]

Sure there would have been some air cover for the IJN carriers, but many zeros presumably provided cover for dive bombers etc, and were not available to protect the carriers. So maybe enough US attacking planes could have gotten through, just like at Midway. US subs could also have played a role if alerted.

[Spin]

Hmm, true about the subs.

I'll do some research into the matter.

[starman2003]

Regarding subs, there was admittedly, a probable drawback-US torpedoes often performed poorly early in WWII. But maybe one or more could've been lucky.

[Rinty]

Nothing would have been different.

The US would have had to go to war with Japan and would have chosen to let off a couple of atom bombs anyway.

The invasion of Iraq and Afganistan and the global scaremongering about international terrorists were laready planned.

[starman2003]

Victory could have been easier and come sooner, even if the outcome wouldn't have been essentially different.