[Stormsmith]

The procedure you've discribed, the removal of the clitoris, is not, I repeat not, circumcision. It is the elimination of a sex organ from which women derive pleasure. Only a man who can't handle a woman's sexuality would advocate this barbaric procedure over common sense solutions like condoms or soap and water.

Methinks you've dated far too many blow-up dolls, and can't handle or cant manage pleasuring a woman.

[Fasces]

Women can still feel sexual pleasure without clitoral stimulation, as you might know if you were a half-competent lover yourself. This is not about denying women pleasure, but about improving hygiene, aesthetics, and reducing STI risk. Certainly some pleasure is sacrificed, but the same is true of male circumcision, as the foreskin has the greatest concentrated number of nerve endings.

[Lightman]

It isn't satirical in the middle east. This practise has been ongoing for centuries. The idea is to eliminate the woman's sexual arousal to prevent her from acting no better than she should as a single woman, and to prevent her from cuckolding her husband. The crap argument in the OP's post is patently ridiculous. STD can and are preventable with a two-bit condom. The unattractive argument is laffable, coming from the guys who's naughty bits look like the last chicken in the shop.

I am fairly certain that Fasces is attempting to make a point about male circumcision.

[CounterChaos]

The growth in cosmetic corrective procedures on the vagina over the last decade indicate you are in the minority.

...If your ideology is in the majority, then there is no doubt that my generation failed miserably..

[Stormsmith]

Women can still feel sexual pleasure without clitoral stimulation, as you might know if you were a half-competent lover yourself. This is not about denying women pleasure, but about improving hygiene, aesthetics, and reducing STI risk. Certainly some pleasure is sacrificed, but the same is true of male circumcision, as the foreskin has the greatest concentrated number of nerve endings.

A lot of women can only climax through clitoral stimulation. You're condemning those women to a lifetime of frustration. A clitoralectomy will not stop aids, nor will it prevent almost all yeast infections. Those are internal issues, and have dick to do with this atrocity you wish to inflict on little girls on the off-chance they mate with an infected male or suffer a yeast infection through antibiotics etc or sex itself.

If you want to whinge about male circumcision, do so without going on about it via this fuquewittian attempt at mutilating your daughters.

[Fasces]

Why is male circumcision more palatable, Stormsmith?

[Lightman]

fuquewittian

I just have to take a moment to show my appreciation of that word. Well done, sir.

[franfran]

I can't believe that anyone is seriously promoting female genital mutilation and I doubt the accuracy of what he says.

Here is some interesting information from a survey in Eritrea, where this barbaric practice is rife, showing women's attitudes to it:

PERCEIVED BENEFITS OF FEMALE CIRCUMCISION
Among women who have heard of female circumcision, three in ten report that there are no benefits from circumcision. The subgroups in which at least half of women report no benefits from circumcision are women who are not circumcised, women living in Asmara, and women with at least some secondary education. Additionally, 40 percent of younger women (age 15-19) and women with some middle-level education, and almost half of women living in zoba Maekel and women in the highest quintile of the wealth index, mentioned that there are no benefits from female circumcision.
For many Eritrean women circumcision is an important factor in attaining social acceptance and having better marriage prospects. Social acceptance (42 percent) is the most frequently cited benefit of circumcision, followed by better marriage prospects (25 percent), and religious approval (18 percent). Although the subgroups vary markedly in terms of whether they perceive any benefits from circumcision, these three benefits (in that order) are cited most often by almost all subgroups. Religious approval as a benefit of circumcision was mentioned by one-third of women who had the most severe form of circumcision and 24-30 percent of women in zobas Debubawi Keih Bahri, Gash-Barka, Semenawi Keih Bahri, and Anseba and women in the two lowest quintiles of the wealth index. Among these women, social acceptance is the most frequently mentioned benefit of circumcision followed by religious approval and better marriage prospects.
Personal cleanliness or hygiene (13 percent) and the view that female circumcision preserves virginity and prevents premarital sex (4 percent) are mentioned less frequently as benefits of circumcision. However, one-fourth of women who had some flesh removed from their genitals during circumcision and women in zoba Debubawi Keih Bahri, and one-fifth of women in zoba Semenawi Keih Bahri, mentioned personal cleanliness or hygiene as one of the benefits of the practice.

PERCEIVED BENEFITS OF GIRLS NOT BEING CIRCUMCISED
Forty-three percent of women report that there would be no benefit to a girl not being circumcised.
More than half of women age 40-49, rural women, uneducated women, women in zobas Semenawi Keih Bahri and Anseba, and women in the lowest quintile of the wealth index say that there are no benefits to a girl not being circumcised.
Among those who perceive benefits to not being circumcised, avoiding pain (30 percent), having fewer medical problems (16 percent), and more sexual pleasure for the woman (14 percent) are the most frequently cited benefits. Less than 5 percent reported that an uncircumcised girl would give more pleasure to her husband than a circumcised girl, and the same proportion said that an uncircumcised girl would be following religion. Avoiding pain is the most frequently cited benefit among all subgroups; more than four in ten uncircumcised women (45 percent) cited this benefit. The proportion mentioning “fewer medical problems” as a benefit to not being circumcised increases steadily from 8 percent of women in the lowest wealth quintile to 22 percent in the highest wealth quintile. A similar pattern is observed by women’s education. The more education a woman has, the more likely she is to believe that girls have fewer medical problems if they are not circumcised. Urban women—especially those in Asmara—are more likely than rural women to cite more sexual pleasure for the girl as a benefit of not being circumcised.

http://webapps01.un.org/vawdatabase/uploads/Eritrea%20-%20Chapter%2012%20DHS%20-%20FGM.pdf

Suggestion to the OP: an even more effective way of reducing HIV/AIDS would be to remove all penises.....


(reason for edit: to fix up mistake with quote tags only)

[Fasces]

Among women who have heard of female circumcision, three in ten report that there are no benefits from circumcision. The subgroups in which at least half of women report no benefits from circumcision are women who are not circumcised, women living in Asmara, and women with at least some secondary education. Additionally, 40 percent of younger women (age 15-19) and women with some middle-level education, and almost half of women living in zoba Maekel and women in the highest quintile of the wealth index, mentioned that there are no benefits from female circumcision.

An opinion poll is not sufficient evidence for proving a medical point. An opinion poll today would resoundingly support the Lipid Hypothesis, and one in the 1900s would extol the medical value of tobacco.

Suggestion to the OP: an even more effective way of reducing HIV/AIDS would be to remove all penises.....

HIV/AIDs is more transmissible through the vaginal walls, and women are at a higher risk than men for contracting it.

[Rich]

This whole thread looks like a troll. However female circumcision is popular where there is great fear of female sexuality.

[wat0n]

Certainly some pleasure is sacrificed, but the same is true of male circumcision, as the foreskin has the greatest concentrated number of nerve endings.

And yet several studies have shown mixed results on this issue.

[franfran]

Suggestion to the OP: an even more effective way of reducing HIV/AIDS would be to remove all penises.....

HIV/AIDs is more transmissible through the vaginal walls, and women are at a higher risk than men for contracting it.

But if the men don't have penises, how is it going to get to the vaginal walls?

[Fasces]

And yet several studies have shown mixed results on this issue.

Contrary to expectations, nearly 90% of all women interviewed [with FGC] said that they experienced orgasm (climax) or had at various periods of their marriage experienced it. Frequency ranged from always to rarely.

This is higher than rates among Western women.

But if the men don't have penises, how is it going to get to the vaginal walls?

The HIV incidence among lesbians is higher than among heterosexual women, so I'm sure they'll find a way.

[Dave]

This is higher than rates among Western women.

As the saying goes, the brain is the most important sex organ in women. The reason these "circumcised" women orgasm more than Western women is because they live in rigidly patriarchal societies, and are thus all by default much less powerful than men. Nearly all men, even the lowest goat-herder, are thus extremely sexually attractive to women and thus female orgasms during sexual intercourse are commonplace. If these women had their ladybits in tact they would simply have more, and more intense, orgasms.

The conclusion is not that we should circumcise our women, but that we must strip them of social, economic, and political power. Then they will have mind-blowing orgasms 24/7.

[wat0n]

This is higher than rates among Western women.

Are there any studies asking whether women's sensitivity changed after they were circumcised?

[Fasces]

Considering the bulk of circumcisions take place in infancy, such studies may run the risk of revealing those who have sex with infants.

I, however, doubt it. The vagina is not being harmed in any way. If you're asking whether they feel less clitoral sensitivity, well then certainly, much how circumcised men feel less glans sensitivity.

[CounterChaos]

The conclusion is not that we should circumcise our women, but that we must strip them of social, economic, and political power. Then they will have mind-blowing orgasms 24/7.

..You heard it folks! Directly from the one that is working endlessly to improve the sexual pleasure of women! So, keep your woman barefoot and pregnant! Imagine her orgasms to come....

[wat0n]

Considering the bulk of circumcisions take place in infancy, such studies may run the risk of revealing those who have sex with infants.

Well, if there are any who didn't get circumcised when they were infants it could be worthy to go on and ask them.

I, however, doubt it. The vagina is not being harmed in any way. If you're asking whether they feel less clitoral sensitivity, well then certainly, much how circumcised men feel less glans sensitivity.

As far as I'm concerned, the important measure should be overall sensitivity, for people - both men and women since this thread is really about male circumcision - who have had sex both before and after being circumcised. Results seem to be mixed in the case of male circumcision, and this is what matters regarless of what medical theory suggests.

[Fasces]

As far as I'm concerned, the important measure should be overall sensitivity, for people - both men and women since this thread is really about male circumcision - who have had sex both before and after being circumcised. Results seem to be mixed in the case of male circumcision, and this is what matters regarless of what medical theory suggests.

Why should it matter at all? Is it so hard to say the mutilation of a person's genitals, except for medical necessity, is fundamentally wrong?

[wat0n]

Why should it matter at all? Is it so hard to say the mutilation of a person's genitals, except for medical necessity, is fundamentally wrong?

One of the typical anti-circumcision arguments is that it reduces sensitivity, so why not ask people if their sensitivity actually worsens after being circumcised?