Should it Really be Ok to NOT hit your child? - Page 3 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

Wandering the information superhighway, he came upon the last refuge of civilization, PoFo, the only forum on the internet ...

Crime and prevention thereof. Loopholes, grey areas and the letter of the law.
Forum rules: No one line posts please.
#14046196
Sceptic wrote:Does anyone else think that if people were stealing, burning down buildings or getting drunk and beating people up that it was because they were taught violence as opposed to the idea that one day they suddenly had common sense beaten into them?

I can assure you that I was never taught to either steal or burn buildings down.

Kids are born without knowing right from wrong. Without knowing anything at all for that matter.
They learn like we all learn, by trial and error. A process of experimentation.

Now you can teach them stuff, but you can't teach them everything because you are not god and there are finite limits to your time and no finite limits to the number of mistakes they could make in any number of scenarios they might find themselves, that you are unable to predict in advance.

So instead of relying on pre-teaching alone, we also discipline them after they have made mistakes that we do not wish them to make again.
So that they can clearly recognise their mistakes as mistakes and so that they can understand the severity of their mistakes by the severity of the discipline they recieved in return for making them.


I was on the otherhand taught to fight, and I believe that throughout my life I have consistently and almost exclusively used that ability to protect people weaker than me.
Those whose parents were too weak to teach this to their own children perhaps.


Common sense is the use of our sum knowledge so far in life to know an expected outcome in advance of it occouring.
Children have very little life experience and hence very little common sense to draw upon.
Through instruction you can share yours with them to some extent. Through discipline, you can add to their own.
#14046212
Sceptic wrote:Does anyone else think that if people were stealing, burning down buildings or getting drunk and beating people up that it was because they were taught violence as opposed to the idea that one day they suddenly had common sense beaten into them?


I believe that kids that were beaten as children are more likely to grow up and be violent adults. I believe this because scientific studies seem to confirm this.
#14046215
I believe that kids who were not taught to fight don't just get take more beatings as children, but that they take more beatings as adults too.

I'm sure there are plenty of statistics that show children who are pussies growing up to be adults who are pussies also.
Last edited by Baff on 31 Aug 2012 16:48, edited 3 times in total.
#14046226
I always like to hear the perspective from parents though. It's easy to say shit when you don't have kids. I have a kid, but he is so young that I really don't know what it's like to really have to discipline a child.

What I will say is this. My boy use to always like to pee as soon as you open his diaper (or nappy for the Brits). It was annoying because his piss would get EVERYWHERE. What we did is, whenever he started to do that we would cheese grater him in the face... I'm kidding I'm kidding. What we really did was just say "NO!" in a tone of voice that was a little bit angry/disappointed. We also made sure that he saw in our faces how disappointed/angry we were. After a few weeks of that, he pretty much never pisses on me anymore. :)
#14046237
Rei Murasame wrote:Also, Baff, there is a difference between "being a pussy", and "knowing when not to fight".

A pussy is someone who always thinks it's the time not to fight.
Who just isn't prepared to use or meet with violence.

This show of weakness is likely to provoke attack in an aggressor where a show of strength is more likely to deter one.

Example.
2 bogs barking at each other.

Both are displaying their willingness to use violence.
If one dog barks aggressively and the other dog does not bark aggressively in response, the one that doesn't bark is going to get attacked.
You have to be willing to fight in order to avoid the most fighting.
Last edited by Baff on 31 Aug 2012 17:13, edited 1 time in total.
#14046263
^
Rei, beat me to that. Yea, why not do that instead of hoping that if you smack your kid around he will be more brave. From what I have noticed, cultivating self-respect, confidence in your morality, not fear of physical pain and knowing that you have support no matter what (like your family), pretty much will form a brave person who will stand up for themselves. I do not really see how beating your kid will do that, because there is so much to it.


Daktoria wrote:It's not even necessarily that.

Some parents get it, but just don't care. They discriminate against personalities they don't like, and take intimidation as an excuse to do so.

For example, some parents are concretely minded, but being racists, they expect their own children to be the same.

When their children turn out to be abstractly minded, they bully their own children similarly to how kids get bullied in school.

On top of that, because of their lack of reliable confidence, their kids continue to get bullied, so come home crushed.

The parents don't care and a vicious cycle perpetuates. Some parents even want their kids to hang out with the wrong crowd because it's an easy thing that they know how to discipline. It's similar to how some parents wish their children were homosexual because if they were, it would be a simple explanation for what's wrong. Parents wouldn't have to adapt their stubborn, emotionally judgmental personalities.
I agree with you on this, but that usually means parents have some sort of issue of their own, that does not allow them to accept their child for whom they are. On the other hand, I really doubt they do it consciously though, I think it is more something done from blind ignorance rather then deliberate action. This is in no way to excuse their blind and hurtful actions though.

Rancid wrote:I don't intend to spank my kid, but I simply can't bring myself to look down on those that do. What I will say is that I think spanking should definitely be stopped after the early toddler years though. At that point, a kid is developed enough to understand basic right from wrong and can be pushed one way or another with disincentive (grounding, taking away of toys, etc.) and incentive (giving of toys, allowing more freedom, etc.). I would image that spanking a kid later than those years could be destructive to their personality development.
My parents stopped the whole spanking thing when I reached the age of puberty, they realized then that it will not work anymore. I think this is pretty much how I'm going to approach the whole physical discipline thing with my kids, in terms of age limit and when to stop it. Yet, I hope to never use physical discipline on them though.
#14046272
My plan is to use non physical means. Most especially I intend to shame him when he does anything bad. It works very well for my little cousins when I had to baby sit them. :lol: I can make a kid cry without touching him. 8)
#14046320
Emotional pain works.
Humiliation before their peers is a pretty strong way to make people learn fast.

Plaro wrote: Yea, why not do that instead of hoping that if you smack your kid around he will be more brave.


I'm not suggesting I smack my kids around to make them more brave, I'm suggesting your kids smack you around to make you more brave.
Last edited by Baff on 31 Aug 2012 18:49, edited 2 times in total.
#14046327
Rancid...

There are many reasons to why a child can use a good smack... But the best one of all is the one that requires them to NEVER make that same one ever again.
A crack upside the head is a little more memerable than having your xbox taken away.
If I had one of those xboxes when I was a kid and if I decided to be disrespectful to my mother... my father would've broke it over the back of my head instead of just taking it away.
Now I know for sure I ain't getting it back... UNTIL I changed my ways and until my father knew for sure I learned my lesson.
His way always worked.
I'll always love him and respect him for that.
Most kids today aren't taught respect.
Most of them end up dead or in jail because of it.
My father knew better.
More than anyone I ever knew.
I'm thankful that he molded me to think like him while putting me in a class all by myself.
Thanks Dad.
I love you!
#14046809
Drugs and ALCOHOL was a major reason to my rebellious ways.
I was punished a lot.


So he beat you?

That's horrific parenting. :eh: When I asked my dad for booze he just gave me it and if was the shitest, cheapest, most disgusting larger money could buy. :lol: To this day I am certain that he made his choice on what booze to give me as a way of putting me off drinking. :lol:

It mostly worked, it was only once I was buying my own that I realised getting drunk was a pleasure not a chore. :lol:

Anyway my point is that there are ways to manage these things that don't involve violence.
#14047127
It is necessary to use force to discipline a child in order to put emphasis on preventing them from certain behaviours. It does not mean you damage them or really hurt them. If you do not do this then they will not understand. It is better to shout but it does not always work. Tap on the bottom, nothing more.

Plaro is spanking common discipline for Russians?
#14047428
[quote="Baff"]Emotional pain works.
Humiliation before their peers is a pretty strong way to make people learn fast.


Baf...

Humiliating them in front of their peers is what gets the child/teenager to resent and often hate their parents in the first place.
I would've much rather been slapped and beaten to a bloody pulp in the corner of my room than to have been yelled at and belittled in public for all to view.
I guess that's why I respected my father and his punishments...
He was nice enough to refrain from embarrassing me and treating me like a little baby when it came to molding me into a young man.
#14047610
Plaro wrote:Well if you ought to continue with that mentality then do your children a favour, and just do not have them. As you will just continue the legacy of you father, that is "I love you, therefore I beat you".


The legacy my father passed on to me is one that has served me well.
If I do half as good a job of raising kids as he and my mother have I shall be very pleased with myself indeed.

Do your own children a favour. Don't be a pussy so that they don't follow into your footsteps and continue the legacy of their father and become wet pussies too.


The mentality of I love you but I am too scared to stop anyone else from beating you doesn't leave you in a firm position to pass judgement on anyone elses parenting in my opinion.


You said your father smacked you, do you feel this has turned you into a monster who inflicts violence onto children or something?
Or are you just trying to be offensive towards me or make a joke?
I have no idea.



@ Joel.
My job is to teach people, not make them love me.
I will use whatever method I judge best works on whatever student at whatever moment as per requirements.
Quite often, mostly even, getting them to love me is exactly the right one. But not always.

There are minor humiliations stuff like.... "everybody raise your left hand on the count of 3. 1-2-3"
At which point the kids who don't know left from right instinctively all get embarrassed as their classmates spot it. This, while not being a very deep or emotionally scarring experience is humiliating enough for people to start getting it right.
Kids don't mind looking stupid in front of just me, but infront of the people they most want to impress... it's a powerful motivator not to be underestimated.
So we make all the kids in the class answer questions out loud in front of all the other students.
None of them get to stay in their emotional comfort zones if they don't know the right answers to the questions.

I was on the parade ground when I finally got left and right nailed down to an instinctive 100% accurate response. And this is the method that worked on me.
Everytime I got it wrong, A) everyone would laugh and B) I had to do a zillion press ups in the snow while the corporals kicked me in balls, stood on my head etc..
You learn fast in that kind of teaching enviroment.
Faster than any other I know.

Humilation can of course go deeper and yes it can alienate a student.
But the kind of student that is used upon harshly,
A) has a massive ego that renders him unable to learn because he already knows best and his ability to make smart arsed replies has so far been all he has needed to succeed in life.
B) is disrupting the rest of the class and usurping the teachers position of authority. So that the other kids are looking to his smart arse replies to learn from and not what the teacher is attempting to show them instead... as their parents are paying for them to be.


So if you can't handle it, and you hate that teacher so much that you can never learn from him, instead of allowing yourself to be put in your place by your superiors...
Then you are the sort of poor student that frankly needs to be excluded from class in the best intrest of others.
It's a shame to lose one, but one size does not ever fit all.

Luckily if your child is unable to learn from Teacher A, he may still be able to learn from Teacher B instead. And this in fact is quite normal and something schools are wise to.

However it should be noted that I usually take all the problem students into my classes. (Saves on losing teachers who can't handle the abuse midway through term).
So if you can't learn with me, the chances are your next stop is being taken into care.
Last edited by Baff on 02 Sep 2012 16:36, edited 8 times in total.
#14047622
All the long winded posts by spanking advocates don't matter.

What matters is what we can verify with our own senses, and the truth is that (according to the people who went at looked at it very carefully) beating your child will make your child more likely to be violent and break the rules.

And if they say that science is bullshit and they don't want to believe the studies because of this or that personal anecdote, then I will simply say that in all my years of parenting (am I the only person in this thread with kids?) I have never had to hit a kid. Beat that anecdote.

You're the adult in the situation. Act like it.
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 7

I'm surprised to see the genocide supporters (lik[…]

@JohnRawls What if your assumption is wrong???[…]

Sure, but they are too stupid to understand, Trum[…]

Israel-Palestinian War 2023

This is the issue. It is not changing. https://y[…]