Are you allowed to defend yourself against cops? - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Crime and prevention thereof. Loopholes, grey areas and the letter of the law.
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#14494265
I think it is outrageous that people are expected to submit completely to police.

In Mexico police working for cartels pull people over for traffic violations, but really it is an assassination and they just murder them.

In the US something less overt but equally murderous is occurring.

If you find yourself being choked to death by a cop isn't your life worth more? Regardless of innocence don't you have a right to defend yourself?

To stand your ground?

If you were being arrested but feared for your life do you not have a reasonable defense for killing a cop?

Why not?

Do you lose all your rights when being arrested? No, in fact you lose no rights for being arrested.

If you fear for your life when a cop arrests you for robbery, you kill that cop, you should still be sentenced for robbery but be innocent of murder or manslaughter for killing a cop who threatened your life.
#14494384
... which is why there is that whole "legal system" thing that oversees and overrules them. If that system is corrupt, as in Mexico, you have bigger problems than police actually enforcing laws. Unless, by your logic, people should just be able to shoot you for breaking a law.
#14494387
Zagadka wrote:... which is why there is that whole "legal system" thing that oversees and overrules them. If that system is corrupt, as in Mexico, you have bigger problems than police actually enforcing laws. Unless, by your logic, people should just be able to shoot you for breaking a law.


I would argue that we have a bigger problem, however, we don't really need to address the macro-issue.

On a personal level, if you knew there is a mass murderer on the loose and all your friends are like "damn man he looks JUST LIKE YOU", except they know his name, and then a cop tells you to freeze "that name", YOU BABY KILLER! and starts shooting at you and you're being shot, bullets are ripping into you.

You happen to have a gun...

And you shoot back...and kill the cop dead.

Is this not self defense?

How much more do you deserve to defend yourself when the intentions are even less clear but the fear is equally pronounced?
#14494393
If you find yourself being choked to death by a cop isn't your life worth more? Regardless of innocence don't you have a right to defend yourself?


A couple of things:

1. Police do not use choke holds.

2. The bad news is that you're screwed if you run into a bad cop. The good news is there aren't that many.
#14494400
Yes but not helpful to the hypothetical at hand.


I'm not sure I understand that at all. This is the United States of America and our cops are not corrupt Federales. I'm assuming this thread is in response to those NYC cops not being indicted for attempting to arrest that fat idiot who struggled and had a heart attack. They had been accused of using a choke hold, but at best they were using a headlock.

Then again, maybe that's not what this is about.

I have a friend who is a retired NYC Homicide Detective. He says those cops did it wrong. He said they should have just taken a billy club to the guy's knees. Take out his support and he's on his ass and easier to haul away.

Bottom line, if a cop says you're under arrest, you aren't going to talk him out of it. And if you try to resist, bad things are going to happen. Cops are killed by resisting perps and they go into extreme protective mode if a perp struggles.

Go downtown, call the lawyer.
#14494426
Donald wrote:The world isn't perfect.

Obey their instructions, remain silent, contact a lawyer.


What if they are killing you instead of taking you to a lawyer?

I don't think people here are quite understanding the question.

The question's assumptions are:

1) You're innocent
2) You're going to die if you do nothing.
3) The Cop is going to kill you if you do nothing.

There is no lawyer in the situation, no "sue them later", etc.

You...dead...if you don't kill the cop.

The cop's motives are unimportant, is it a case of mistaken identity? Assassination? Malice? Etc? Doesn't matter.

The fact people cannot even properly address the question shows the level of COGNITIVE DISSONANCE and BRAINWASHING that prevents them from accurately addressing cop related issues.
#14494443
Donald wrote:You'll probably die anyway. The police have a monopoly on lethal force, if they can't arrest you alive, they'll kill you.

It's kind of like getting a 5 star wanted level in Grand Theft Auto. Eventually you'll die.


Apt Analogy but does that mean the cops who kill you will be prosecuted for unlawful use of force?

Let's say the cops invade a house by accident, the wrong house, and the home owners are SEALs, like a frat house of SEALs, and they kill 10 SWAT team members and completely kill everyone involved before it is discovered what has happened.

Were they defending themselves?
#14494460
Donald wrote:No. Police are law enforcement officers. Killing police officers is a kind of obstruction of the rule of law. If the law considered your hypothetical scenario 'self-defense', the law would be negating itself and inviting anarchy.

Are you an anarchist?


No but isn't it hypocritical that you can't protect your life against a murderous cop?
#14494511
IDNeon wrote:If you find yourself being choked to death by a cop isn't your life worth more? Regardless of innocence don't you have a right to defend yourself?


One of the problems is that in martial arts, especially judo & bjj, they teach you that choke holds are perfectly harmless submissions holds and they just put the guy to sleep. Which is true, but only when they are applied correctly. I don't know whether this cop was just overly-eager for a chance to use this newly learned technique, or he was genuinely a nasty person.
#14494517
IDNeon wrote:No but isn't it hypocritical that you can't protect your life against a murderous cop?

There is little chance of being killed by a cop. The best thing to do is nothing as any assault on a policeman, justified or not, will result in a custodial sentence. Better to get a beating than end up in prison for a few years.
#14494519
Juries should automatically acquit the perp if the vic was a pig: Jury nullification of pig protection laws is something that can and should happen.

There just needs to be a mass movement to bring that idea to the public. If the justice system can't get juries to convict people with their pig protection laws, any laws the State uses to protect their thugs will be rendered meaningless.

People shouldn't convict other people for crimes against a bourgeois State and its institutions, period.
#14494525
In Britain there has been some high profile cases where the cops are guilty of manslaughter, at least, but they walk free. It is what you get in a fucked up world. Who guards the guards?

Image
#14494547
The question's assumptions are:

1) You're innocent
2) You're going to die if you do nothing.
3) The Cop is going to kill you if you do nothing.


Not something you really have to worry about. There isn't a rash of incidents out there where cops are doing that.

What you have to remember (especially if you live in a large city) is that a police officer is not someone from the public relations department. He/she is NOT community outreach. He/she has the job of getting between you and the worst people in the jungle. It is a very dangerous job and he/she sees things every day that would scare the crap out of you. And he/she is prepared to defend you in a very ugly way.

He/she already knows that if he/she has to pull the gun and fire, his/her career (and pension) is likely over. Bottom line, use common sense. Don't commit crimes. Don't hang around with people who do commit crimes. And if possible, don't move into a crime infested neighborhood. Use common sense and you'll likely not even see a police officer except on television.
#14665797
If a cop is threatening your life, kill them or die, lawyers only become an issue if your living? The right to defend yourself is very high up the legal food chain not to mention basically nobody would respect a piece of paper saying they couldn't defend themselves anyway or at least they shouldn't if they want to defend themselves... But also in this current state of affairs the police and military have a huge monopoly on martial force and all 80percent of the gun laws probably do get in the way of the real 2nd amendment. 2nd amendment, and don't tell me some retarded bullshit about militias so not relevant, not only are you allowed to own weapons your are allowed to be an armed military force; in terms of fighting the government this is better than being able to be a lone gunman your allowed to be a part of a you and like minded individuals run army that you created yourselves. Also self defense is a very respected common law principle in the USA in terms of the legal system. All Adult males that aren't seniors are automatically a part of the unorganized militia in the USA so they can own weapons and those aren't just for hunting deer, those are for the express purpose of killing humans. So I kind of think most gun laws are a joke and that nobody actually honors the spirit of the law or the letter anymore.

Logically if your life is at risk and you defend it it was defended, if you didn't it wasn't. Lawyers and Judges are always going to be after the fact so proportion them lesser importance, half the Constitution is about protecting your person from the government. And the Common law is also really big on self defense so I think in terms of the legality is the Self Defense rules in the USA absolute nonsense and trash, no they are okay because they try not to punish your for protecting yourself. And since we are a land of the free and believe in equality and fairness supposedly a cop is just a person with representative powers of society but doesn't become a special being because of it. If they attack you unprovoked kill em. A hypothetical would be can a cop be guilty of the crime, is attacking someone unprovoked a crime? If having a suit and a metal with some little pictures maybe an eagle or something on it and getting your paycheck from the government doesn't making commit crimes legal then no that is not a exception.
#14665869
People have a right to defend themselves from assault but resisting the police is taking-on the system which is heavily stacked against ordinary people. Unless the actions of police brutality is caught on video, it is wise to comply in order to live another day. In some jurisdictions, the police seem to be a law unto themselves. Some countries are best avoided altogether.

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