[Syph]

I would like to suggest a radical proposal to change the way that cases of sexual violence are handled by the justice system. Firstly, I would like to suggest reason's why the current system is inadequate:

• One in four college women report surviving rape or attempted rape at some point in their lifetime. These are anonymous reports on multi-campus surveys sampling thousands of college students nationwide (Fisher, Cullen & Turner, 2000; Tjaden & Thoennes, 2006).
• Approximately 11% of college women who experience rape report it to the police (Kilpatrick, et al., 2007).
• Of those cases reported to the police, less than 10% of rape cases result in criminal charges against a defendant (Alderden & Ullman, 2012).

This is merely the tip of the iceberg and shows a horrific cultural attitude to sexual violence. The current system is failing the victims of these crimes and protecting the perpetrators.

The following proposals to solve the problem are very controversial.

The burden of proof in a trial should rest on the perpetrator to prove enthusiastic consent before and during a sexual encounter if the following criteria are met:

• The victim filed a contemporaneous police report.
• A rape kit was taken.
• There is evidence of violence to the victim's genital area consistent with rape.

The following arguments should be unnacceptable defence against a charge of sexual violence:

• Commentary of victim's clothing, reputation or behaviour prior to the initiation of the sexual act.
• The perpetrator and/or victim was intoxicated with drugs or alcohol.
• The victim didn't verbalise a "no" at any point.

I can predict that a key criticism of these proposals is that it defies "innocent until proven guilty". However, I feel that rape and sexual assault are special cases due to the cultural attitudes to the crime and the terrible outcomes of the current system.

At this current moment the system overwhelmingly favours the perpetrator and to redress the balance, radical measures are required. What do others think of these proposals and what alternative solutions are available to solve the problems.

[Decky]

So one accusation and off to prison they go eh? Got a real vote winner there. Half of the population ready to be carted off to prison at any time on the basis of sweet fuck all evidence. It is like a bad distopian fiction book except the middle class window lickers actually believe it.

[Donna]

I can predict that a key criticism of these proposals is that it defies "innocent until proven guilty". However, I feel that rape and sexual assault are special cases due to the cultural attitudes to the crime and the terrible outcomes of the current system.

At this current moment the system overwhelmingly favours the perpetrator and to redress the balance, radical measures are required. What do others think of these proposals and what alternative solutions are available to solve the problems.

You sound like you might be a Canadian engaged in the post-Ghomeshi 'conversation'.

Basically, if you want to treat a certain class of criminal defendants differently from the rest, the only way you can legally do this is to scrap the criminal justice dimension entirely and process rape cases through a separate tribunal altogether. The aim of these tribunals would have to be purely restorative, rather than a matter of criminal justice coupled with the threat of incarceration. The idea then is to 'help' accused persons to empathize with their victim.

Alternatively, there is the patriarchal option: we can bring back hanging and simply execute those who have soiled our fair maidens. This would however result in the cultural reinforcement of the value of a woman's virginity and her own responsibility to safeguard it.

[Syph]

So one accusation and off to prison they go eh?

Given that false rape accusations range from 2-8% (which is less than false theft accusations at 10%), it's ridiculous to care more about false imprisonment for rape than 90% of rapists escaping justice. Which is the greater evil here?

Half of the population ready to be carted off to prison at any time on the basis of sweet fuck all evidence.

How is witness testimony considered "sweet fuck all evidence" when assault convictions can be made on witness testimony alone?

The aim of these tribunals would have to be purely restorative, rather than a matter of criminal justice coupled with the threat of incarceration. The idea then is to 'help' accused persons to empathize with their victim.

The alternative being teaching young people not to rape, be comfortable talking about sex and practice affirmative consent (which can be non-verbal, by the way).

[Bulaba Khan Jones]

The burden of proof in a trial should rest on the perpetrator to prove enthusiastic consent before and during a sexual encounter if the following criteria are met:

• The victim filed a contemporaneous police report.
• A rape kit was taken.
• There is evidence of violence to the victim's genital area consistent with rape.

Terrible, dumb, and stupid:

• You're assuming anyone on trial or accused of a crime is automatically the perpetrator of the crime and thus guilty
• You're saying we should assume guilt and make the accused prove their innocence
• You're ignoring the obvious fact that if DNA evidence is taken from the victim and shows that the person accused is in fact the same person that DNA belongs to, then there's already proof established.

[Decky]

You people are beyond parody. God I long for the day when the middle class are cast from power.

[Bulaba Khan Jones]

The alternative being teaching young people not to rape, be comfortable talking about sex and practice affirmative consent (which can be non-verbal, by the way).

Being a male =/= rapist. People who rape are not going to care what people say about not raping people. People who don't rape, the overwhelming majority of people, are going to continue not raping regardless of what people say about not raping people.

This isn't rocket science.

[Donna]

The alternative being teaching young people not to rape, be comfortable talking about sex and practice affirmative consent (which can be non-verbal, by the way).

What does that have to do with the law, though?

I would take it a step further: criminalize the production, distribution, and possession of hardcore pornography.

[Syph]

• You're assuming anyone on trial or accused of a crime is automatically the perpetrator of the crime and thus guilty

The thing is that when it comes to rape, the defendant is assumed to be innocent (justified) but the victim is also assumed to be lying unlike many other crimes.

For illustration:

• You're saying we should assume guilt and make the accused prove their innocence

As you can see from my example above, it is a reliable technique for defence lawyers to blame the victim for the crime. Imagine suffering this kind of interrogation on the witness stand for any other crime, it's disgusting.

• You're ignoring the obvious fact that if DNA evidence is taken from the victim and shows that the person accused is in fact the same person that DNA belongs to, then there's already proof established.

The accused merely has to insist the sex was consensual especially if the victim is their significant other (who are the bulk of convicted rapists) or drunk or wearing a short skirt or promiscuous.

Being a male =/= rapist.

Our culture enforces that men can't be raped. I disagree with this attitude as well. It's undeniable statistical fact that 98% of rapists are men.

People who rape are not going to care what people say about not raping people. People who don't rape, the overwhelming majority of people, are going to continue not raping regardless of what people say about not raping people.

This is utter bollocks. 9% of college men admit to acts meeting the legal definition of either rape or attempted rape (Abbey & McAuslan, 2004). This means that a lot of men need education on what constitutes rape and this will help reduce the incidence of the crime.

[Decky]

Oh noes some drunk sex occurred at a university? Jesus Christ if people like you had their way 99% of men and women would be in prison.

[Syph]

Oh noes some drunk sex occurred at a university? Jesus Christ if people like you had their way 99% of men and women would be in prison.

The trivialization of rape that you are engaging in is very disturbing. Sex should be a collaborative act of mutual pleasure, not some guy getting his rocks off using a drunk woman as a sex doll. It's indicative of our culture that such views are commonplace.

[Decky]

Oh noes some drunk sex occurred at a university? Jesus Christ if people like you had their way 99% of men and women would be in prison.

[Donna]

Syph, there's a much larger rape epidemic occurring in prisons than college campuses.

[Syph]

Syph, there's a much larger rape epidemic occurring in prisons than college campuses.

You're point being? I acknowledge that there is an enormous rape problem is prisons. However:

• Most civilians believe that their rape is fine because they are just filthy criminals.
• Prisons lack the resources to staff prisons to prevent rape occuring.
• Prison guards ignore the problem because of Point #1

[Bulaba Khan Jones]

The thing is that when it comes to rape, the defendant is assumed to be innocent

Yes, this is how a trial works.

As you can see from my example above, it is a reliable technique for defence lawyers to blame the victim for the crime. Imagine suffering this kind of interrogation on the witness stand for any other crime, it's disgusting.

The accused merely has to insist the sex was consensual especially if the victim is their significant other (who are the bulk of convicted rapists) or drunk or wearing a short skirt or promiscuous.

Lawyers routinely do things that are disgusting, but this is no justification to make the accused prove their innocence as you think should happen.

Our culture enforces that men can't be raped. I disagree with this attitude as well.

Our culture enforces that men cannot be raped? This makes no sense, considering that as a society, we openly acknowledge male rape, notably within the prison system.

It's undeniable statistical fact that 98% of rapists are men.

This is utter bollocks. 9% of college men admit to acts meeting the legal definition of either rape or attempted rape (Abbey & McAuslan, 2004). This means that a lot of men need education on what constitutes rape and this will help reduce the incidence of the crime.

That's not what I said. I wasn't talking about the ratio of male to female rapists, but that your posts imply that men are rapists. As I said, the overwhelming majority of people are not going to rape anyone in their lifetime. Those that do are going to do so in spite of people saying "rape is wrong."

[Donna]

You're point being? I acknowledge that there is an enormous rape problem is prisons. However:

• Most civilians believe that their rape is fine because they are just filthy criminals.
• Prisons lack the resources to staff prisons to prevent rape occuring.
• Prison guards ignore the problem because of Point #1

The point is that prison reform is a much more pressing issue than sexual education or campus rape.

Prisons adversely affect the working class in many ways.

[Syph]

Lawyers routinely do things that are disgusting, but this is no justification to make the accused prove their innocence as you think should happen.

A lawyer would get thrown out of court for suggesting that the victim of a robbery was lying using racist language. Why should sexism be tolerated in court? Perhaps an alternative would be to set precedents of what can't be used as a defence against a rape accusation.

Our culture enforces that men cannot be raped?

Most rape laws are written in ways that make it impossible for a woman to be convicted of raping a man. The word penetration is used in the legal definition in multiple countries.

That's not what I said. I wasn't talking about the ratio of male to female rapists, but that your posts imply that men are rapists.

Are the following acts rape:

• A man pounces on a woman walking through a park at night, beats her and penetrates her in the bushes.
• A man leads a drunk woman to her bedroom where she passes out and he has sex with her.
• A husband guilts his wife into having sex with him.
• A boyfriend is mid-coitus and his girlfriend tell him to stop. The boyfriend finishes anyway.

[Decky]

A husband guilts his wife into having sex with him.

If a wife guilts a husband into taking the bins out it is slavery? After all guilting someone into doing something is the same as forcing them to do it.

[Syph]

As I said, the overwhelming majority of people are not going to rape anyone in their lifetime. Those that do are going to do so in spite of people saying "rape is wrong."

Where do you get this from?

• High-risk men who see The Men’s Program commit 40% fewer sexual assaults than high risk men who are untreated (Foubert, 2011; Foubert, Newberry & Tatum, 2007).
• High risk men who see The Men’s Program and who do commit sexual violence, commit acts that are 8 times less severe than untreated men (Foubert, 2011; Foubert, Newberry & Tatum, 2007).
• College students who see The Men’s Program are more likely to intervene as a bystander to help prevent rape (Langhinrichsen-Rohling, Foubert, Brasfield, Hill, & Shelley-Tremblay, 2011).

[Syph]

If a wife guilts a husband into taking the bins out it is slavery? After all guilting someone into doing something is the same as forcing them to do it.

Manipulation has no place in healthy relationships. I apologise for assuming you had experience with such matters. From your attitudes, it's clear that your relationships are transactional matters.