thoughts on police and black men dying - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Crime and prevention thereof. Loopholes, grey areas and the letter of the law.
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#15166971
All the more so when physical force is used to try to restrain and control a person who is physically resisting, all sorts of things can go wrong.

Throw in the suspect being a big strong man who is not easy to restrain, and acting irrationally because they are under the influence of drugs.


There was a fatal shooting incident by police and a female police officer meant to shoot him with a taser gun, which was actually a small handgun. The black suspect tried to flee when he was handcuffed by a male officer and he had to be tasered by his assistant. White suspects generally act more rationally when they are stopped by police unless they are suicidal, while black suspects are prone to act violently, triggering a violent response from police. Whites are better educated and they know how to handle police officers calmly.

On the other hand, a civilian-centered explanation for these disparities is that White civilians may react differently toward police than racial minorities in crime-related situations. If White civilians present more threat toward police, this could explain why a person fatally shot was more likely to be White than Black or Hispanic. Among those fatally shot by police, Whites are more likely (relative to racial minorities) to be armed and pose a threat (26). We attempted to control for civilian threat level by measuring whether they were armed and attacking, but found these variables unrelated to the race of a person fatally shot. These issues illustrate a broader challenge in inferring civilian characteristics during fatal shootings. The newspaper databases we analyzed contained at least some errors (e.g., in whether civilians are coded as armed; ref. 37). There are likely more false positives and negatives in these databases, such as when separating individuals committing suicide who are not experiencing a mental health crisis from those who are experiencing a mental health crisis. Another challenge is that dichotomous variable codes may not capture the complexity of these interactions (e.g., a person is coded as attacking, but they had stopped struggling before they were fatally shot). One solution is to code civilian threat level in a more continuous way (e.g., ref. 10). But this will only be realistic if better records of FOIS are kept at the federal level. For this reason, we urge caution when interpreting the impact of civilian characteristics on racial disparities in fatal shootings.
https://www.pnas.org/content/116/32/15877
#15166974
@ThirdTerm

Yeah, from my experience and I don't want to come off as racist when I say this, but it seems that black folks have more attitude when dealing with the police. Generally, I don't give them an attitude at all and just say "yes sir" or "no sir" and take my ticket when I am ticketed by the cops. Then I hire a lawyer to fight the ticket so it doesn't cost me as much on my insurance (not everybody can afford an attorney though and white folks are more economically advantaged). But the court won't give you any slack if they find out you gave the police officer an attitude even if you do have a lawyer and you don't necessarily always have to hire a lawyer to get the court to give you slack over a ticket though it's a good idea to do so if you can afford a lawyer.

But a court is far more likely to cut you some slack if you didn't give the police officer an attitude problem when you get a ticket. A ticket is not the end of the world and is certainly not worth arguing with the police over. Not even a lawyer can help you if you gave the police officer an attitude when he gave you a ticket. Courts won't help you even with a lawyer and you will just get slammed with the legal consequences regardless. That's how it works here in the Untied States.
#15166978
wat0n wrote:That's not what your source says. But what it does say is that the deaths of cops are.


Maybe.

Again, my focus is on the killings by police officers.

Those seem to be avoidable, bit police do not seem to make an effort. For example, Mr. Floyd might still be alive if the police had checked to see if the money was actually counterfeit.
#15166982
Wellsy wrote:And again there is an assumed benevolence here that people are simply making mistakes but this doesn't Account for why the US is the worst in having cops kill people. It seems a big stretch to explain this as simply human error across the board.

I know this will sound completely horrible, but maybe the cause is the victims. Maybe there is something about their behavior that makes it much more likely to lead to these situations.

That doesn't completely excuse the other side who killed them, but it does point out a possible explanation why things are different in the US.
#15166983
Pants-of-dog wrote:Maybe.

Again, my focus is on the killings by police officers.

Those seem to be avoidable, bit police do not seem to make an effort. For example, Mr. Floyd might still be alive if the police had checked to see if the money was actually counterfeit.


Floyd would be alive if Chauvin had actually followed the norms of his own PD. If the bill was counterfeit then they'd have released him, and that'd be it.

But yes, not all the police killings are unavoidable. That's why they are forced to use bodycams to treat these in a case by case basis.
#15166984
Chicago police recently released the video tape of an officer shooting a 13 year old boy.

People are free to watch it and explain how this shooting was caused by the unarmed child and not the cop.

—————-

wat0n wrote:Floyd would be alive if Chauvin had actually followed the norms of his own PD. If the bill was counterfeit then they'd have released him, and that'd be it.


While I agree that the Minneapolis Police Department (MPD) would have released Mr. Floyd killer without charging the killer if the police had known the bill was counterfeit.

But I do not know how this would have saved Mr. Floyd.

But yes, not all the police killings are unavoidable. That's why they are forced to use bodycams to treat these in a case by case basis.


I do not think they are forced to do so. At the time of Mr. Floyd’s death, his killer was not forced to wear a bodycam that was on. The policy was changed because of the killing of Mr. Floyd.

Nor would it have saved Mr. Floyd, since his killing was recorded by many cameras, and the killer was obviously aware that he was being recorded and continued to kill Mr. Floyd anyway.
#15166988
Pants-of-dog wrote:Chicago police recently released the video tape of an officer shooting a 13 year old boy.

People are free to watch it and explain how this shooting was caused by the unarmed child and not the cop.


Indeed, I just saw it. The kid dropped the gun when the cop told him to and yet he shot him anyway.

Pants-of-dog wrote:While I agree that the Minneapolis Police Department (MPD) would have released Mr. Floyd killer without charging the killer if the police had known the bill was counterfeit.

But I do not know how this would have saved Mr. Floyd.


How could you infer that from what I said? It's quite evident, as MPD officers testified, Chauvin didn't follow his PD's regulations.

Pants-of-dog wrote:I do not think they are forced to do so. At the time of Mr. Floyd’s death, his killer was not forced to wear a bodycam that was on. The policy was changed because of the killing of Mr. Floyd.

Nor would it have saved Mr. Floyd, since his killing was recorded by many cameras, and the killer was obviously aware that he was being recorded and continued to kill Mr. Floyd anyway.


And yet it helps to deter cops from misusing force as we've seen through before.
#15166989
Puffer Fish wrote:I know this will sound completely horrible, but maybe the cause is the victims. Maybe there is something about their behavior that makes it much more likely to lead to these situations.

That doesn't completely excuse the other side who killed them, but it does point out a possible explanation why things are different in the US.

In some cases I could see how things escalate and rather than wait, an officer in self defense pre-emptively shoots a suspect. But in many cases it doesn’t clearly appear as such even where there is claims of resisting arrest it seems to vague a blanket defense where police have enough control of the situation that death is needless.
#15166992
wat0n wrote:Indeed, I just saw it. The kid dropped the gun when the cop told him to and yet he shot him anyway.


So the argument that thee victim caused the shooting is incorrect.

How could you infer that from what I said?


Because that is what you said: “If the bill was counterfeit then they'd have released him, and that'd be it.” I.e. “If the bill was counterfeit then the MPD would have released Mr. Floyd’s killer, and that'd be it. “

It's quite evident, as MPD officers testified, Chauvin didn't follow his PD's regulations.


Yes, it would also seem that we cannot depend on police following regulations even if it causes death.

And yet it helps to deter cops from misusing force as we've seen through before.


Not quite. The study you cited in the other thread showed a reduction in the times the cops reported using force. There was no measure of whether or not there was a reduction of force.
#15166996
Pants-of-dog wrote:So the argument that thee victim caused the shooting is incorrect.


Who claimed that? Your own source claims most cops who die on the job, die to the actions of other persons.

Pants-of-dog wrote:Because that is what you said: “If the bill was counterfeit then they'd have released him, and that'd be it.” I.e. “If the bill was counterfeit then the MPD would have released Mr. Floyd’s killer, and that'd be it. “


What makes you believe "him" refers to Derek Chauvin?

Pants-of-dog wrote:Yes, it would also seem that we cannot depend on police following regulations even if it causes death.


Then whoever does that needs to face the consequences

Pants-of-dog wrote:Not quite. The study you cited in the other thread showed a reduction in the times the cops reported using force. There was no measure of whether or not there was a reduction of force.


And that specific study also reported a reduction in complaints by the public against police misbehavior, not that it's the only empirical evidence on the matter. Although given your poor reading comprehension, one shouldn't rely on your interpretation of the literature.
#15167114
wat0n wrote:Who claimed that? Your own source claims most cops who die on the job, die to the actions of other persons.


My source was cited for the purpose of showing that cops are doing a job no more dangerous than what most able bodied men have done at some point in their lives. The single sentence it devotes to the causes of police deaths is not an exhaustive and nuanced look at police violence.

What makes you believe "him" refers to Derek Chauvin?


That is what you wrote, is it not?

Anyway, it seems very possible that the infamous counterfeit bill was not counterfeit. It has been in police custody for a while, and it would have looked good for the killer and the police force if it were counterfeit, so they probably checked. The fact that they have not announced that the bill is counterfeit implies that it is not.

Then whoever does that needs to face the consequences


This might be starting to happen. But maybe not. For example, the police who killed Breonna Taylor were not charged for the act of shooting her. The MPD itself only started charging cops within the last few years, so it is too early to tell if there is any systemic change.

And that specific study also reported a reduction in complaints by the public against police misbehavior, not that it's the only empirical evidence on the matter. Although given your poor reading comprehension, one shouldn't rely on your interpretation of the literature.


Correlation is not causation. But since I have poor reading comprehension, maybe that does not mean what I think that means. :)
#15167115
Pants-of-dog wrote:https://www.ishn.com/articles/112748-top-25-most-dangerous-jobs-in-the-united-states

    AdvisorSmith studied the most dangerous jobs in the United States based on data from the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics Census of Fatal Occupational Injuries. They studied professions with minimum employment of 50,000 workers to find the 25 most dangerous jobs among 263 total professions in the study. The fatality rate was normalized by adjusting the number of fatalities by employment in each profession.

    On-the-job deaths have been rising in recent years, rising from 4,821 in 2014 to 5,250 deaths in 2018, an increase of 9% over the 5-year period. However, the rate of deaths adjusted for employment has only risen approximately 2.2% over the same period, as an improving economy has led to additional employment. In 2018, the average fatality rate among all jobs was 3.4 per 100,000 workers.

    Our study found that some jobs are significantly more dangerous than others. The most dangerous job, logging, was 33 times more dangerous than the average job nationwide. Additionally, many of the most dangerous jobs earn average salaries that are below the May 2019 annual mean wage of $53,490. Companies that hire workers with the most dangerous jobs usually have workers’ compensation insurance premiums that are higher than average.

    The study also found that self-employed workers were 3.3 times more likely to die on the job compared with hourly and salaried workers. Wage and salaried workers had an average fatality rate of 2.9 fatalities per 100,000 workers in 2018, while self-employed workers had an average fatality rate of 9.4 per 100,000 workers during the same period.

    For more intriguing insights from the study, read on for the top 25 most dangerous jobs in America.

    .....

    7. Delivery drivers
    BLS Category: Driver/sales workers and truck drivers
    Fatal injury rate: 27 per 100,000 workers
    Total deaths (2018): 966
    Salary: $29,610
    Most common fatal accidents: Transportation incidents

    Delivery drivers load and unload trucks or cars and drive them to their destination within a local area. These workers generally pick up cargo, food, laundry or other items from distribution centers or stores and deliver them to homes and businesses. They also may communicate with customers to coordinate deliveries, collect payment for goods, and process paperwork such as delivery signatures.

    Traffic crashes are the leading cause of death on the job for driver/sales workers and truck drivers.

    ........

    22. Police officers
    BLS Category: Police and sheriff’s patrol officers
    Fatal injury rate: 14 per 100,000 workers
    Total deaths (2018): 108
    Salary: $67,600
    Most common fatal accidents: Violence and other injuries by persons or animals

    Police officers are law enforcement officers tasked with enforcing the law, protecting life and property, and maintaining order. Police officers may perform tasks such as patrolling an area, issuing citations, investigating crimes, arresting suspects, and working with prosecutors on cases.

    How dangerous is it to be a police officer? Working as a police officer is about 4.1 times as dangerous compared with the average job nationwide, based upon the workplace fatality rate. Police officers have a workplace fatality rate similar to maintenance workers, construction workers, and heavy vehicle mechanics.

    The most common cause of death for police officers at work is violence by persons.

    .....

So, cops are about half as likely to die on the job as the person bringing you tasty treats.

POD

If you were a cop--------How would you avoid incidents that can lead to death?
#15167118
Pants-of-dog wrote:My source was cited for the purpose of showing that cops are doing a job no more dangerous than what most able bodied men have done at some point in their lives. The single sentence it devotes to the causes of police deaths is not an exhaustive and nuanced look at police violence.


No one claimed it is. But I don't find it surprising cops will not want to die due to avoidable causes.

This is as absurd as saying we shouldn't care about murder because, well, the leading causes of death are diseases and natural ones after all.

Pants-of-dog wrote:That is what you wrote, is it not?


No, it's easy to infer who "him" refers to.

Pants-of-dog wrote:Anyway, it seems very possible that the infamous counterfeit bill was not counterfeit. It has been in police custody for a while, and it would have looked good for the killer and the police force if it were counterfeit, so they probably checked. The fact that they have not announced that the bill is counterfeit implies that it is not.


It's possible. Not that it has anything to do with the arrest - it was still done without following the MPD policy at the time, leading to death.

Pants-of-dog wrote:This might be starting to happen. But maybe not. For example, the police who killed Breonna Taylor were not charged for the act of shooting her. The MPD itself only started charging cops within the last few years, so it is too early to tell if there is any systemic change.


It always depends on the case. The Taylor case is also not really comparable to the Floyd one, for reasons we also saw in the corresponding thread. I doubt the cop involved in the Taylor case would have been charged even outside the US.

Pants-of-dog wrote:Correlation is not causation. But since I have poor reading comprehension, maybe that does not mean what I think that means. :)


Too bad you are missing all the other studies I cited. In reality, though, we wouldn't even know about some of the incidents if the cops hadn't been carrying bodycams. That includes incidents where the footage exonerates them.
#15167119
wat0n wrote:No one claimed it is. But I don't find it surprising cops will not want to die due to avoidable causes.

This is as absurd as saying we shouldn't care about murder because, well, the leading causes of death are diseases and natural ones after all.


No one claimed that cops do not want to die.

But yes, I agree that the original argument about the danger of the profession is absurd.

No, it's easy to infer who "him" refers to.


Yes, Mr. Floyd’s killer.

But you still have not explained how releasing Mr. Floyd’s killer if the bill was found to be counterfeit would have saved Mr. Floyd.

It's possible. Not that it has anything to do with the arrest - it was still done without following the MPD policy at the time, leading to death.


You already pointed out that the killer would probably have been let go if the bill was indeed counterfeit.

And it would make a difference in the court of the media, where Mr. Floyd is being portrayed as a drug abusing criminal.

It always depends on the case. The Taylor case is also not really comparable to the Floyd one, for reasons we also saw in the corresponding thread. I doubt the cop involved in the Taylor case would have been charged even outside the US.


The fact that police can kill innocent BIPOC people with impunity rest of the world does not change the fact that it is a reasonable assumption that cops will get away with it again in the USA.

Too bad you are missing all the other studies I cited. In reality, though, we wouldn't even know about some of the incidents if the cops hadn't been carrying bodycams. That includes incidents where the footage exonerates them.


Yes, it is true that right now, it is impossible to even know how many killings police have done in the USA because of a lack of data.

Forcing all cops to always have a working bodycam, and have these recordings all reviewed by civilian oversight groups, and then having their findings made public would enable us to get an accurate idea of the problem.

And then the problem of cops killing people can start to be addressed. But the US is not there yet.
#15167124
@wat0n

Regardless of your bad luck in terms of getting your point across, I think I have made correct claims.

The recent release of the recording showing the killing of young Mr. Toledo is a good example of why these recordings need to be in the hands of civilian oversight groups. It was one of these groups that released the video and not the police.
#15167129
Pants-of-dog wrote:@wat0n

Regardless of your bad luck in terms of getting your point across, I think I have made correct claims.


You mean regardless of your reading comprehension issues.

Pants-of-dog wrote:The recent release of the recording showing the killing of young Mr. Toledo is a good example of why these recordings need to be in the hands of civilian oversight groups. It was one of these groups that released the video and not the police.


Those civilian oversight groups are part of the same city, and those videos exist precisely because cops are being forced to wear bodycams. I see the release as part of the government doing its job.
#15167132
wat0n wrote:You mean regardless of your reading comprehension issues.


Is that what you wrote? Silly me.

Those civilian oversight groups are part of the same city, and those videos exist precisely because cops are being forced to wear bodycams. I see the release as part of the government doing its job.


Yes, they are all employed by the same city. That is not important. What is important is that this civilian oversight group is not employed by the police.

And yes, the bodycams are needed in order to collect data since the police are often not required to do so.
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