[Pants-of-dog]

@Puffer Fish

What is unclear about a cop abusing his position and authority with a traumatized person?

[MistyTiger]

Abuse of power happens a lot. Most of it flies under the radar.

[Puffer Fish]

Abuse of power happens a lot. Most of it flies under the radar.

I understand the basic concept of "abuse of power". But normally when we say that we are talking about physical abuse of power.

This case involved emotional abuse of power.

This woman wasn't forced to do anything against her will. She went along with it.

To argue that "abuse of power" took place you have to suppose this woman was "vulnerable" and couldn't give meaningful consent. That he hold some sort of hypnotic sway over her, which she could not easily refuse.

It's not a huge step away from viewing women like children, which is how it is in the Muslim World and very traditional Conservative society (like before the year 1900 in Britain and the United States).

Can we honestly ever imagine a woman being sent to prison because she beguiled and seduced the man who is her victim?

[Puffer Fish]

@Puffer Fish

What is unclear about a cop abusing his position and authority with a traumatized person?

His "authority" was irrelevant to this situation.

Can we get that out of the way?


Do you want to put psychiatrists in prison too if they make a romantic move on their patient?

Should we pass a law making it a criminal offense for a marriage counselor to date one of their patients?

How about the priest at a funeral when the woman's husband has just died.

[Pants-of-dog]

His "authority" was irrelevant to this situation.

Can we get that out of the way?

No. It is actually central to the whole issue of manipulation and abuse of trust.

Do you want to put psychiatrists in prison too if they make a romantic move on their patient?

Should we pass a law making it a criminal offense for a marriage counselor to date one of their patients?

How about the priest at a funeral when the woman's husband has just died.

All of these are serious breaches of professional ethics and all could easily warrant being kicked out of the professional order.

[Puffer Fish]

No. It is actually central to the whole issue of manipulation and abuse of trust.

Then you are using "authority" in a different sense than it is usually implied to mean.

This wasn't a situation where the victim was legally compelled to trust the officer because of his authority.
Nor did the victim have any particular reason to fear that the officer could use his official position against her. Nor did the officer use any of the legal powers he had against her.

For this reason, it's not entirely clear why the "abuse of trust" in this case is really any different from a case where the perpetrator was not working for the government, in my opinion.

All of these are serious breaches of professional ethics and all could easily warrant being kicked out of the professional order.

So you are arguing that the crime was because he was in the role of a professional, not specifically because he was a police officer or worked for the government.

So you also believe other professionals should be put in prison in this sort of situation. Yes?

[Pants-of-dog]

Then you are using "authority" in a different sense than it is usually implied to mean.
This wasn't a situation where the victim was legally compelled to trust the officer because of his authority.

That is exactly what the situation was.

You did not read the article properly.

Nor did the victim have any particular reason to fear that the officer could use his official position against her. Nor did the officer use any of the legal powers he had against her.

For this reason, it's not entirely clear why the "abuse of trust" in this case is really any different from a case where the perpetrator was not working for the government, in my opinion.

The officer used his official position against her by abusing it and using it as a weapon in his manipulation of her.

So you are arguing that the crime was because he was in the role of a professional, not specifically because he was a police officer or worked for the government.

Both, actually.

So you also believe other professionals should be put in prison in this sort of situation. Yes?

No. I am a prison abolitionist.

I would probably support a penalty of capital punishment for serial rapists who abuse their position to prey on the young and traumatized.

[Puffer Fish]

The officer used his official position against her by abusing it and using it as a weapon in his manipulation of her.

My point was the officer used his position against her in the same way that a therapist, or grief counselor might have used their position against her.

When you say that the police officer used his position against her, it implies and insinuates things that were not present and had nothing to do with this story.

In fact there are plenty of men who take advantage of grieving women. While it's morally questionable, it's usually not considered a crime.
Emotional manipulation of a woman is also dastardly, but not considered a crime.

[Pants-of-dog]

My point was the officer used his position against her in the same way that a therapist, or grief counselor might have used their position against her.

When you say that the police officer used his position against her, it implies and insinuates things that were not present and had nothing to do with this story.

In fact there are plenty of men who take advantage of grieving women. While it's morally questionable, it's usually not considered a crime.
Emotional manipulation of a woman is also dastardly, but not considered a crime.

It is a crime when your profession puts you in a position of authority over someone else and you abuse said position for personal gain to the detriment of that someone else.

[MistyTiger]

It is arbitrary! Surely you can see that.

Oh, certainly it is based on some "understanding", but that understanding is not some obvious common law one which most everyone in society agrees on.

There are "obvious" damages, like if I defraud you of money, damage your car, or even cause you injury putting you into the hospital and out of work. No one disagrees with that.
But we're talking about other types of supposed "damages".

Most of which were never specifically voted and agreed upon in law. (But also some that actually have been)

It is not arbitrary. Huizar was warned to stay away from the wife, yet he refused to stay away. The affair continued despite the husband's verbal warning over the wife's cell phone. If someone tells you to stop, you should stop. I blame the wife. She was messing around with two men, I think she should be sued too. She makes us women look trashy and it's just shameful. Why marry a man if later you'll only cheat on him later? It just doesn't make sense to me. She's messed up in the head. I don't think she loves either man. She just loves to feel like she can hold a man's heart because of sex or whatever the fuck she said to the men. It's women like her that turn men into misogynists.

I'm not sure if the lover actually did ruin the marriage, but it's still wrong that he was having an affair while the marriage is still a marriage. I would have no problem if they were already divorced but...they weren't. A marriage should be sacred. Anyone who doesn't understand what a marriage is, should NOT be married AT ALL. I know I refuse to marry because there's just way too many what-ifs and the drama that can ensue due to a marriage. No thanks. I'm content to be single.

[MistyTiger]

I understand the basic concept of "abuse of power". But normally when we say that we are talking about physical abuse of power.

This case involved emotional abuse of power.

This woman wasn't forced to do anything against her will. She went along with it.

To argue that "abuse of power" took place you have to suppose this woman was "vulnerable" and couldn't give meaningful consent. That he hold some sort of hypnotic sway over her, which she could not easily refuse.

It's not a huge step away from viewing women like children, which is how it is in the Muslim World and very traditional Conservative society (like before the year 1900 in Britain and the United States).

Can we honestly ever imagine a woman being sent to prison because she beguiled and seduced the man who is her victim?

The cop was twenty years older than her and the woman was only 21. He manipulated her with his cuddling. A cop should not be cuddling anybody while on the job, especially not when he's married. He was cuddling a young lady who wasn't his wife. She was vulnerable. It was a hard time for her and her family at the time. Her brother had just died.

Her parents were later alarmed about her behavior.

She told the court Mynott exploited her grief for his own gain. In a victim impact statement read to the court, she said: "My brother's death came as a huge shock to me and was traumatising. My world was turned upside down. He exploited this for his own gain. I was often very distraught and confused. I simply did not not know how to cope with life.

"PC Mynott created divisions, secrets and lies in my family at a time when we were all struggling to process things and he was meant to be supporting us." She said the officer had diminished her self esteem by "his emotional and sexual abuse".

"In a nutshell he made me feel worthless by constantly undermining me at a time when I was having severe emotional trauma," she added. The victim, who sat in court for the hearing, added: "PC Mynott took advantage of me at a very vulnerable time of my life. He was in a position of power, trust and took away my chance to grieve for my brother. He has shown no remorse for his actions."

That is from the article you posted. Indeed, it shows that she was vulnerable and the cop took advantage. He had a family, a wife and child. He had no business having a sexual relationship with the young woman who was grieving for her younger brother.

[Puffer Fish]

It is a crime when your profession puts you in a position of authority over someone else and you abuse said position for personal gain to the detriment of that someone else.

Can you at least agree on this:
He was put in prison because he misused his role as a grief counselor to emotionally manipulate an emotionally vulnerable young woman into having sex with him?

The position that he misused was that of a grief counselor, not a law enforcement officer.
And the "manipulation" was entirely emotional, playing on her feelings.

When he had been assigned to her, he was acting in the capacity of, and taking on the role of a grief counselor, not the type of role that a police officer normally takes on. For that reason, the fact he was a police officer is not very relevant to this situation.

A man who was only a grief counselor could have just as easily done to this woman what this police officer did, it would have been exactly the same situation.

And even when this woman realised he was going beyond the bounds of a grief counselor, did she stop it? No.

She WILLINGLY continued to have sex with him over and over again.

[Pants-of-dog]

The only reason he was put in the position of grief counselor is because he was a cop.

[MistyTiger]

I'm pretty sure that grief counselors are not taught to seduce their clients and make them crave sex. The cop tempted the woman and offered her a distraction. It's a shame that he used his experience and position in a way that helped him feel good but in the end, left the woman feeling cheated and used. The cop didn't respect her feelings or her grief.