The Uninhabitable Earth - Page 9 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

Wandering the information superhighway, he came upon the last refuge of civilization, PoFo, the only forum on the internet ...

Pollution, global warming, urbanisation etc.
Forum rules: No one line posts please.
#14825059
Pants-of-dog wrote:.....except bicycles exist in such profusion right now that they will not magically become insanely expensive if we move towrds a cleaner world.


What about all the people who are not capable of riding a bicycle? Where is your humanity? :lol:
#14825074
SolarCross wrote:Yes because entropy is a thing. And because as many of them as you think there are, there aren't enough when you consider most people don't have them. They have cars instead, and if fuel becomes prohibitively expensive the demand from them will grow.


Actually, most car drivers have a bike gathering dust in their garage.

But entropy is not an issue since we can repait and maintain bikes quite easily.

Sooner or later the "profusion" you imagine exists will wear out and rust away, that's entropy look it up, and so new one's will have to be made and the raw materials for them sourced. If you can't use fossil fuels they will have to be made with hand tools with raw materials found with hand tools (unless we go full nuclear or cover the entire world in solar panels) powered by muscle: animal or human. Made in this way is the pre-industrial way as in the middle ages and yes it will cost the 100x as much as such methods are only 1% as productive.


Not really. I can buy bikes made in Quebec, made out of recycled steel.

Fancy a job mining for iron ore to make bicycle frames using only hand tools? Or are you too "intellectual" to do that kind of work? Maybe in a world without fossil fuels you won't have the choice, someone will make a slave of you or you will starve.


Yes, those places with hydro-electric dams are not real. Quebec actually uses slaves. :roll:
#14825085
SolarCross wrote:... so it is fair for you to cry about how everything sucks but on the other hand it is a system that allows silly and ineffectual people such as yourself to live. ...

Lots of people live in Cuba and in other systems that aren't media-numbed capitalism. The fact is, WE (the West) don't let other systems survive.

To say that "I owe my entire existence to capitalism and colonialism," is like saying that no one would survive under any other kind of system. Which is a silly lie.

Silly lies are killing us just as fast as climate destruction.
By RhetoricThug
#14825098
Consciousness is the medium and we are its message.

Thought is creating divisions out of itself and then saying that they are there naturally. -David Bohm

We havent really paid much attention to thought as a process. We have engaged in thoughts, but we have only paid attention to the content, not to the process. -David Bohm

But you don't decide what to do with the info. Thought runs you. Thought, however, gives false info that you are running it, that you are the one who controls thought. Whereas actually thought is the one which controls each one of us. -David Bohm

Oh look, Idols of Forum continue to offer their limited perspective as a solution for a perceived problem larger than their existence. See, they are not interested in the process of dialogue, they want to tattoo your mind and make sure you share their tribal awareness. Yes, tribal awareness may pretend to be exclusive and include human characteristics, but the surface tension is a side-effect of 'being present' or conscious attention, due to the process of comprehension; the bias of human cognition must create a semantic conclusion/resonance so we can reach out and modify things passing through time which appear to be related to the happening of structured (divided) space. The individual becomes a resource for the group's intention(s), servicing (through intimate involvement) a human myth or artifact. Myths and artifacts must be perceptions and properties abstracted from the whole of reality as a side-effect of sentient and biological organisms colliding inside the ecology of a super-organism humans label 'Earth.' Unfortunately, humans must compartmentalize experience and serve a state of perception that is limited and contained by dimensional entanglement. The finite human is incapable of fulfilling any self-driven myth it conjures up as it struggles to sustain the illusion of progress (movement or motion in any direction is progression, especially when you 'think' thus 'believe' in your own achievements) as one SELF-evident reaction to an eternal present (NOW...NOW...NOW), because it lives inside an organism-that-lives-inside-of-a-system-that-lives-inside-of-a-system-that-lives-inside-of-a-system-system-system-0-1-0-1-0-1-0, therefore humans are self-contained/entangled phenomena which appear as one superficial symptom of the incomprehensible/incompressible/kaleidoscopic/undivided singularity of information known as the universe. Once materialized, humans immediately mimic their surroundings (nature as primordial guru) and intellectually separate themselves (conceited knowledge applied and polished) from the source code of all existence because they're designed to instinctively act as solipsistic entities. In other words, identity is an illusory by-product of perpetual evolution operating under the shadow of the 4th dimension (which is enfolded inside the 5th-6th-7th-8th-9th, etc), each organism inside its material expression of dimensional entanglement must view itself as the sole perception enfolded in a sensory inception knowingly and unknowingly motivated by its participation in something larger than itself.

"Hey guys, the sky is falling, socialism will save us!"

The power elite believe the only way to survive is to develop what they describe as lifeboat states, that is, highly militarized police societies that can protect the wealthy from everyone else.

I hope you all realize that the future will be a dystopia, basically resembling the class structure of Metropolis, or, more recently, Elysium.


Hey, way to go, you're officially attaching yourself to a perspective I brought to the table a couple years ago (although you denied such ideas at the time). Meh, we're just collecting and reiterating self-driven concepts. Furthermore, There's a whole album about this (Fait Accompli), go listen to 'Sinflation.'


Today, tomorrow, six months, next year
They have always held the keys to your fears
Fast-forward, decades later, blood, sweat and tears
Are shed to the creator, but it was all made-up
Generation after generation, tell me what changes
History keeps repeating itself for ages

He was driving a Tesla model S playing loud music
He drove into an EMP storm and got electrocuted
Trust fund lawyers were recruited, lawsuits were instituted
“The electric car killed him”; prove it!
Quantum evolution quantum conducive
Quantum revolution rap music quantum electrocution
Transformed him into a mutant, infrared eyesight lucid
Sharpen the picture, fine-tune it or lose it
God’s gift, optic oculus rift; look around your environment
But keep your composure, now what do you think?
I think it’s all gone to shit; these problems can’t be fixed
I think the only solution is reset
They say comply or die, regroup on your side
Or mine and stop making excuses about why
Keep an eye on the micro, but notice the macro
The bottom line is our slave masters are assholes

Today, tomorrow, six months, next year
They have always held the keys to your fears
Fast-forward, decades later, blood, sweat and tears
Are shed to the creator, but it was all made-up
It ain’t today, tomorrow, six months, or next year
They enjoy playing off of all our fears
Fast-forward, decades later, blood, sweat and tears
Are shed to the creator, we don’t worship no paper

Preach, the higher the peak, the lower we are forced to dig deep
The best outcome is always out of reach
Do you agree to disagree about hope? ‘Course you don’t
Believe everything they see, you’ll never see through the smoke
You say you know the ledge, that’s just a theoretical edge
To make the world a better place you need more than a pledge
Trust no one, even yourself
And this includes the person giving, receiving or needing some help
But you sold them your soul and they stretched out your donut hole
You only know what you were told, not what you behold
The collapse is simultaneously triggered
Now you know what it feels like to be a statistic
Poor sons of bitches ain’t allowed to make decisions
We’re middle-class midgets living off of Third World figures
They say the economy’s grown
But if you look there’s more vacant homes than homeless people living on the road

You stop getting chances when you stop taking them
So just follow your orders, never question who’s making them
“Let us hold hands, let us pray with him”; excuse me, what’s your name again?
“Okay, we’ll have another round of Jameson
Drink up, rejoice, let’s pretend we always have a choice
Cause we sure as hell never had a voice”
The day of reckoning, your last will and testament
Text-messaging emergency services still testing pings
Black Swan psychologists could’ve been worse, they could’ve been communists
Objection sustained, McCarthyism, counselor
A complete monopoly, this is proper Hip-Hop verbosity
Show you how it be and how it look to me
They build, destroy, recycle, that’s how they get it done
Vocal percussions, no interruptions, perfection
Soundproof coffins, the haunted eavesdrop too often
It’s always me and the Lord when I’m talking
Taking long walks on winter beaches falling
With splinters and blisters and the sound of whispering torment
The guillotines are sharpening, their background music is ominous
Laying there naked dying from insomnia
Hungry ‘cause they’re starving us, gun sentries, hall monitors
Droning and daunting, my dear long-armed darlings
We are death-marching, ritual, sinister, barefoot prisoners
Dig a hole so POWs can shit in it
Prisoners during peacetime, peaceful and primitive
We never could understand, what the fuck is a derivative?
Admit it: we were all deceived with such relative ease
Only because we dared to dream
They stole control with a single act of multiple hacks
They were literal, visceral, non-physical attacks
City-wide but then the chaos metastasized to the countryside
We cried, our Bill of Rights were nullified
So miserable, so sad, I don’t ever think I’ve felt this bad
Feelings are emotions, emotions are scams
Wealth intimidates poor people more than violence
So they hide it, I’ve been on both sides of the fence
The common man changed to behave as a slave
Reading Elliott waves in a daze on a Forex page
When Braveheart was brought to King’s Court he was shackled in chains
I heard him say “that was an unwinnable game”
#14825298
Pants-of-dog wrote:Actually, most car drivers have a bike gathering dust in their garage.

But entropy is not an issue since we can repait and maintain bikes quite easily.

Not really. I can buy bikes made in Quebec, made out of recycled steel.

Entropy is always an issue. Parts can be replaced cheaply because parts are manufactured in high energy consuming fossil fuel powered manufacturing processes. If spare parts have to be hand made they will not be cheap. Also with the majority of the population being obliged to go back to working in the fields the rarity of those able to make specialist parts increases. Recycled steel saves so mining but replaces it with re-manufacturing, either way you are looking at the consequences of muscle power having to carry what was once carried by fossil fuels. So what you don't want to a miner but would rather work in a smeltery heaving waste steel into smeltering pots? I think we both know the answer to that.

Pants-of-dog wrote:Yes, those places with hydro-electric dams are not real. Quebec actually uses slaves. :roll:

I am surprised someone with your moral crusading habits would be unaware that hydro-electric are worse ecologically speaking than coal plants. Trace element of sulphur aside coal power plants just output CO2 which whatever its alleged planet warming properties is otherwise entirely non-toxic and actually plant food. The output of coal plants is the same compound as comes out of your exhalation. Hydro-electric in contrast catastrophically destroys river ecologies. There is a substantial ecological movement to see them taken down.

The Downside of Dams: Is the Environmental Price of Hydroelectric Power Too High?

[quote=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Bay_Project#Environmental_impacts]Also Quebec's project specifically has some pretty crushing environmental issues. [/quote]

Moreover hydro-electric damns like you have in Quebec can only be built and maintained by a fossil fueled powered industry.. Reduce people to animal power and hand tools, then no new ones can be made and the existing ones will succumb to entropy and eventually fall down...

QatzelOk wrote:Lots of people live in Cuba and in other systems that aren't media-numbed capitalism. The fact is, WE (the West) don't let other systems survive.

To say that "I owe my entire existence to capitalism and colonialism," is like saying that no one would survive under any other kind of system. Which is a silly lie.

Silly lies are killing us just as fast as climate destruction.


WAIT HOLD THE FUCK UP! I thought we were talking about FOSSIL FUELS now suddenly we are talking "capitalism and colonialism"? Look at Cuba and you see poor as mud people but they are poor as mud people driving 1950s american gas guzzlers...

Image

Cuba today, lol.

Commies don't give a shit. Look at China or the USSR and its catastrophic environmental disasters, chernobyl anyone? Seriously on what fucking planet did commies become environmental angels because it sure a shit stinks isn't the planet earth.

I am not saying pseudo-intellectual posers can avoid an honest days work because of "capitalism" I am saying you can avoid an honest days work because of fossil fuels. Go back to muscle power, animal or human and you will die of starvation.
#14825336
SolarCross wrote:Entropy is always an issue. Parts can be replaced cheaply because parts are manufactured in high energy consuming fossil fuel powered manufacturing processes. If spare parts have to be hand made they will not be cheap. Also with the majority of the population being obliged to go back to working in the fields the rarity of those able to make specialist parts increases. Recycled steel saves so mining but replaces it with re-manufacturing, either way you are looking at the consequences of muscle power having to carry what was once carried by fossil fuels. So what you don't want to a miner but would rather work in a smeltery heaving waste steel into smeltering pots? I think we both know the answer to that.


No, parts do not need to be hand made. They can he made in a factory that is serviced by a hydroelectric facility.

Not would most people need to go working in the fields. Do people who get their energy from hydroelectric dams or nuclear power stations work in fields?

Recycling stations can also work off of hydroelectric and nuclear.

I am surprised someone with your moral crusading habits would be unaware that hydro-electric are worse ecologically speaking than coal plants. Trace element of sulphur aside coal power plants just output CO2 which whatever its alleged planet warming properties is otherwise entirely non-toxic and actually plant food. The output of coal plants is the same compound as comes out of your exhalation. Hydro-electric in contrast catastrophically destroys river ecologies. There is a substantial ecological movement to see them taken down.

The Downside of Dams: Is the Environmental Price of Hydroelectric Power Too High?

Also Quebec's project specifically has some pretty crushing environmental issues.

Moreover hydro-electric damns like you have in Quebec can only be built and maintained by a fossil fueled powered industry.. Reduce people to animal power and hand tools, then no new ones can be made and the existing ones will succumb to entropy and eventually fall down...


Please provide evidence that hydro-electric dams are worse for climate change than coal.

While they do have a negative environmental impact, the amount of energy as compared to the impact is much higher than for fossil fuels.

WAIT HOLD THE FUCK UP! I thought we were talking about FOSSIL FUELS now suddenly we are talking "capitalism and colonialism"? Look at Cuba and you see poor as mud people but they are poor as mud people driving 1950s american gas guzzlers...

Image

Cuba today, lol.

Commies don't give a shit. Look at China or the USSR and its catastrophic environmental disasters, chernobyl anyone? Seriously on what fucking planet did commies become environmental angels because it sure a shit stinks isn't the planet earth.


Are you not aware of the embargo against Cuba and its impact on the vehicle market in Cuba?

I am not saying pseudo-intellectual posers can avoid an honest days work because of "capitalism" I am saying you can avoid an honest days work because of fossil fuels. Go back to muscle power, animal or human and you will die of starvation.


Since no one us arguing that we should return to muscle power for all things, this is a strawman.
#14825445
SolarCross wrote:Bicycles are as unsustainable as cars


SolarCross wrote:Hydro is as toxic as coal

...
Meanwhile, I previously wrote:Silly little lies


Anyone who watches mass media or listens to our current crop of politicians is very familiar with SolarCross's dishonest narrative and the style in which he encases it.
#14826381
But in the aftermath of the 2008 crash, a growing number of historians studying what they call “fossil capitalism” have begun to suggest that the entire history of swift economic growth, which began somewhat suddenly in the 18th century, is not the result of innovation or trade or the dynamics of global capitalism but simply our discovery of fossil fuels and all their raw power — a onetime injection of new “value” into a system that had previously been characterized by global subsistence living. Before fossil fuels, nobody lived better than their parents or grandparents or ancestors from 500 years before, except in the immediate aftermath of a great plague like the Black Death, which allowed the lucky survivors to gobble up the resources liberated by mass graves. After we’ve burned all the fossil fuels, these scholars suggest, perhaps we will return to a “steady state” global economy. Of course, that onetime injection has a devastating long-term cost: climate change.


It is quite the unfortunate habit of economic historians to invent alternative historical facts to fit some novel contrived interpretative narrative.
#14826388
It actually makes a sense to me, with the caveat being that capitalism is what allowed these fossil-fuel goods to be mass produced, and that capitalism goes hand in hand with industrialism (one cannot exist without the other). Honestly I would say that the real environmental catastrophe isn't industrialism but agrarian subsistence. Humans are just a lot more efficient at using resources in a hunter-gatherer society. We work less and produce more calories in those conditions. However people want power so we end up with a top-down system no matter what.
#14826413
Two things I find curious that may affect our future is home generators are finally being allowed to become practical and 3D printing. What happens, very soon now, when it is common to produce your own energy and make your own products? This type of thing is what convinces me we will return to a time when people no longer want to live in cities. This is when the population problem will truly hit us.
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