Stanford University Professor Mark Z. Jacobson Sues Prestigious Team of Scientists for Debunking 100 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14858362
Not sure what to make of this, as this looks like an attempt to determine scientific facts and evidence in court. Perhaps this is the future where courts will decide when the science is settled and "denial" becomes illegal?

On the upside, the group of environmental activists reporting on this are taking a principled stance.

Environmental Progress wrote:
Stanford University Professor Mark Z. Jacobson Sues Prestigious Team of Scientists for Debunking 100% Renewables

Environmental Progress Urges All Environmentalists and Scientists to Denounce Lawsuit as Scurrilous Attack on Science and Free Inquiry

Stanford University professor Mark Z. Jacobson has filed a lawsuit, demanding $10 million in damages, against the peer-reviewed scientific journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (PNAS) and a group of eminent scientists (Clack et al.) for their study showing that Jacobson made improper assumptions in order to claim that he had demonstrated U.S. energy could be provided exclusively by renewable energy, primarily wind, water, and solar.

A copy of Jacobson's complaint and submitted exhibits can be found here and here.

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From Jacobson's complaint

Jacobson’s lawsuit is an appalling attack on free speech and scientific inquiry and we urge the courts to reject it as grossly unethical and without legal merit.

Environmental Progress is publishing Jacobson’s complaint and exhibit in service of putting this issue back into the public domain where it belongs.

Further, we urge all environmentalists — including those that support the 100 percent renewables framework, such as Environmental Defense Fund, Sierra Club, and Natural Resources Defense Council (NRDC) — to join us in denouncing Jaconbson’s legal action.

What Jacobson has done is unprecedented. Scientific disagreements must be decided not in court but rather through the scientific process. We urge Stanford University, Stanford Alumni, and everyone who loves science and free speech to denounce this lawsuit.

The lawsuit rests on the claim that Clack et al. defamed Jacobson by calling his assumption that hydroelectricity could be significantly expanded a “modeling error.”

Environmental Progress weighed in on this controversy when Clack et al. published their article. In our view, it’s clear that Jacobson made a false assumption about the possibility of expanding U.S. hydroelectricity.

Jacobson’s assumption speaks to the essential fallacy of the 100 percent renewables proposal.

Renewables like solar and wind require vastly larger amounts of land and mining in order to produce power that is unreliable. Under the guise of protecting the environment, renewables destroy the environment.

One of the most environmentally devastating ways of producing electricity is with hydroelectric dams. While poor nations have a right to make cheap power from hydroelectricity, their environmental impact is enormous.

Jacobson’s proposal is to expand radically hydroelectric dams so they can support unreliable solar and wind energy. Such a proposal would devastate fish species even more than they have already been devastated.

The only way to promote such an environmentally devastating agenda is to claim it is good for the environment. That requires lying. Now that these lies have been exposed, it is revealing that Jacobson has resorted to a lawsuit that cannot and will not do anything more than intimidate his opponents.

Scientists and energy analysts should not be intimidated. We must stand up to bullies. We urge all lovers of nature and science to join us in denouncing this unprecedented and appalling attack on free inquiry.

I will add, finally, that this lawsuit saddens me personally. I debated Jacobson at UCLA and I believe he is a good person in the grip of a bad idea. I encourage him to drop the lawsuit.

#14859056
Sad!

Reminds me of the Michael Mann "hockey stick" lawsuit where temperatures were supposed to warm by X amount, they didn't, some guys made fun of that and got sued: http://www.cfact.org/2017/07/24/decisio ... k-lawsuit/

One lawsuit is in Canada so God knows what they will do. Another is in DC.
#14859113
Some alarmists are calling for civil RICO actions against deniers -
Should Climate Change Deniers Be Prosecuted?
In June, I took note of Senator Sheldon Whitehouse’s (D-R.I.) op-ed “urg[ing] the U.S. Department of Justice to consider filing a racketeering suit against the oil and coal industries for having promoted wrongful thinking on climate change, with the activities of ‘conservative policy’ groups an apparent target of the investigation as well.”
[...]
Others had already gone farther than the senator himself, calling for making “climate denial” a “crime against humanity,” holding public trials of fossil fuel executives for having resisted the truth and so forth.
#14859184
It's obvious hyperbole, Kaiser, hence the "quote marks."

Given that oil companies believe in climate change when planning to protect their $10 billion rigs from storms and rising seas you could argue that they are guilty of some sort of fraud or conspiracy for lying to the public and regulators.
#14859195
It's definitely stupid speech.

Whether or not you should be jailed for such stupidity is perhaps some function of how badly we need to get on the issue immediately or everything will go to shit.

Frankly we aren't that far off from that point IMO. :lol:
#14859229
We disagree whether it's stupid or not, but my point obviously was that it is speech that is criminalised.

Indeed, but all sorts of speech is criminalised, for all sorts of reasons. The fact that it's dangerously stupid actually seems like a reasonably good reason to criminalise it, to me.
#14859233
If we don't have a right to be outrageously deranged then what rights do we have pote?

In reality? None at all. Rights are themselves a dangerously stupid delusion.
#14859240
Potemkin wrote:In reality? None at all. Rights are themselves a dangerously stupid delusion.



That is simply not so. Rights are an extraordinarily clever way for those with the means to defend themselves in court to gain legal protection while leaving those who don’t to get screwed over. And all the while the concept of equality before the law is apparently maintained.

Hardly a dangerously stupid delusion, at least from the prespective of those with money.

As to criminalising stupid ideas, that is a slippery slope to criminalising any thought not having prior approval from those who control the instruments of state. In fact that is the whole problem with PC. Like the rival religious factions in the wars of the reformation taking control of the state to persecute the other religious faction, PC brings too much ideology into the state with the intention of using state power to crush the opposition.

Is it time to do the same thing to ideology that was done with religion and seperate ideology from the state?
#14859252
Potemkin wrote:Indeed, but all sorts of speech is criminalised, for all sorts of reasons. The fact that it's dangerously stupid actually seems like a reasonably good reason to criminalise it, to me.

Well, you are a stalinist. ;)

As far as I'm concerned, it would be insane to give anybody the authority to decide what is denial and what isn't, and the slippery slope, once we start establishing scientific facts in courts, is much more dangerous than somebody expressing an opinion, whether it is stupid or not. I would also dispute that what "deniers" in the west say is responsible for the lack of global action on climate change which presumably is the rationale of calling their speech "dangerously stupid" or "a crime against humanity".

I'm again struck by how superficial this is. If people were really concerned about climate change, then surely they would criminalise actions rather than speech. How about we make it a crime against humanity for any person to engage in activities that jeopardise the Paris agreement? Now that would at least be interesting. :lol:
#14859269
The left probably would have made it illegal to say that Trump could win the election if they could have got away with it. After all, a Trump dictatorship would not only be incredibly dangerous but it was extremely dumb to believe that he had a chance.

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