[Rancid]

Is it right for other nations to try and pressure Brazil into stopping this?

[Sivad]

@Sivad has already argued that this is not a single incident, but is instead just a typical year.

I never claimed it was a typical year, there are a lot more fires this year then there have been over the last ten years.

If that is the case, and I see no reason to argue that, then this is an ongoing issue, and any negative cumulative effects could be significant.

Maybe in like a century or two but right now it's not a dire emergency. There's no immediate crisis, it's something we should pay attention to but it's not going to end the world in twelve years or anything.

Most of these problems will be resolved by technological innovation. most long term environmental problems are only problems if we don't factor in the power and pace of technological advancement. Just genetic modification alone has the potential to drastically reduce the area needed for farming and logging. Technology is evolving so rapidly that the world of 2119 will be almost unrecognizable to the world of 2019. Just look at how different the world of 2019 is from the world of 1919, it's fucking crazy how radically everything has changed and the pace of innovation is rapidly accelerating.


Ephemeralization, a term coined by R. Buckminster Fuller, is the ability of technological advancement to do "more and more with less and less until eventually you can do everything with nothing," that is, an accelerating increase in the efficiency of achieving the same or more output (products, services, information, etc.) while requiring less input (effort, time, resources, etc.).[1] Fuller's vision was that ephemeralization will result in ever-increasing standards of living for an ever-growing population despite finite resources. The concept has been embraced by those who argue against Malthusian philosophy.[1]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephemeralization

[Pants-of-dog]

I never claimed it was a typical year, there are a lot more fires this year then there have been over the last ten years.

It must have been someone else who claimed that an “analysis of NASA satellite data last week indicated that the total fire activity in 2019 across the Amazon, not just Brazil, is close to the average when compared with a longer 15 year period”.

Maybe in like a century or two but right now it's not a dire emergency. There's no immediate crisis, it's something we should pay attention to but it's not going to end the world in twelve years or anything.

No one claimed that this particular symptom of the ongoing environmental devastation is the one that will end it all.

Most of these problems will be resolved by technological innovation. most long term environmental problems are only problems if we don't factor in the power and pace of technological advancement. Just genetic modification alone has the potential to drastically reduce the area needed for farming and logging. Technology is evolving so rapidly that the world of 2119 will be almost unrecognizable to the world of 2019. Just look at how different the world of 2019 is from the world of 1919, it's fucking crazy how radically everything has changed and the pace of innovation is rapidly accelerating.

Ephemeralization, a term coined by R. Buckminster Fuller, is the ability of technological advancement to do "more and more with less and less until eventually you can do everything with nothing," that is, an accelerating increase in the efficiency of achieving the same or more output (products, services, information, etc.) while requiring less input (effort, time, resources, etc.).[1] Fuller's vision was that ephemeralization will result in ever-increasing standards of living for an ever-growing population despite finite resources. The concept has been embraced by those who argue against Malthusian philosophy.[1]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephemeralization

Yes, and in the same book that he describes ephemeralisation (i.e. Critical Path), he also discussed how Brazil should industrialise its destruction of the rainforest. While I agree with many of his ideas, including using ephemeralisation for social change, he was also very idealistic and did not take into account that neo-liberals would destroy our environment for a buck.

[Sivad]

It must have been someone else who claimed that an “analysis of NASA satellite data last week indicated that the total fire activity in 2019 across the Amazon, not just Brazil, is close to the average when compared with a longer 15 year period”.

It actually was someone else, it was the bbc news quoting NASA.

And I love how you took it out of context by the editing the quote, but that's the level of honesty we've all come to expect from you.

Here's the full quote from NASA:

As of August 16, 2019, an analysis of NASA satellite data indicated that total fire activity across the Amazon basin this year has been close to the average in comparison to the past 15 years. (The Amazon spreads across Brazil, Peru, Colombia, and parts of other countries.) Though activity appears to be above average in the states of Amazonas and Rondônia, it has so far appeared below average in Mato Grosso and Pará, according to estimates from the Global Fire Emissions Database, a research project that compiles and analyzes NASA data.

https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/image ... -in-brazil

So there are a lot more fires in Brazil this year, but for the whole of the Amazon it's only slightly above average.

No one claimed that this particular symptom of the ongoing environmental devastation is the one that will end it all.

BBC Newsnight told everyone "our lungs are on fire". The fake news has definitely been hyping and scaremongering the shit out of this.

he was also very idealistic and did not take into account that neo-liberals would destroy our environment for a buck.

He wasn't naive at all, he just wasn't a malthusian crank.

[Pants-of-dog]

Here's the full quote from NASA:

As of August 16, 2019, an analysis of NASA satellite data indicated that total fire activity across the Amazon basin this year has been close to the average in comparison to the past 15 years. (The Amazon spreads across Brazil, Peru, Colombia, and parts of other countries.) Though activity appears to be above average in the states of Amazonas and Rondônia, it has so far appeared below average in Mato Grosso and Pará, according to estimates from the Global Fire Emissions Database, a research project that compiles and analyzes NASA data.

https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/image ... -in-brazil

So there are a lot more fires in Brazil this year, but for the whole of the Amazon it's only slightly above average.

So you did say that the burning this year is an ongoing issue.

And if that is the case, then it is illogical to look at this year all by itself when determining how much damage this is causing.

He wasn't naive at all, he just wasn't a malthusian crank.

Your opinion of Bucky Fuller is irrelevant.

The point is that ephemeralisation is not a panacea for all the world’s environmental problems, especially when there are global interests who profit from a lack of technological progress.

[Sivad]

So you did say that the burning this year is an ongoing issue.

And if that is the case, then it is illogical to look at this year all by itself when determining how much damage this is causing.

Deforestation is way down from 20-30 years ago, it's been getting better not worse.

The point is that ephemeralisation is not a panacea for all the world’s environmental problems, especially when there are global interests who profit from a lack of technological progress.

It is a panacea if it's not being cockblocked by eco-doomers. It's the green idiots insisting on regressive taxes, technocratic despotism, and inadequate renewables rather than investment in research and development of nuclear and fusion and all the other amazing technologies that we could be fast tracking that would solve just about all our problems.

[Pants-of-dog]

Deforestation is way down from 20-30 years ago, it's been getting better not worse.

Having a bad thing be slightly less bad does not make it good.

It is a panacea if it's not being cockblocked by eco-doomers. It's the green idiots insisting on regressive taxes, technocratic despotism, and inadequate renewables rather than investment in research and development of nuclear and fusion and all the other amazing technologies that we could be fast tracking that would solve just about all our problems.

And we are back at your unsupported accusations against leftists and progressives.

Somehow indigenous Amazonians and their supporters are responsible for the failure of nuclear fusion to get past the laboratory stage.