ACC or AGW may call for a new sort of refrigerator/freezer. - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15102754
In the future we may not be able to provide power at night when solar panels don't work.
It may be necessary to put a plastic bag of water in every refrigerator with cooling coils in it.
1] The bag is designed so the water can be frozen every morning when the sun comes up without damaging the bag or "tank". Maybe a cone shaped tank with slippery surfaces would be best. As the water freezes it expands and so climbs up the inside of the tank. Somehow the cooling coils don't break from this.
2] This block of ice then melts overnight to keep the food cold. It will need to be big enough.
3] The refrig will need to be better insulated and may need a door time lock to keep the door closed at night.
4] I doubt these refrigs will be as good as we are used to, but they are better than no refrig.

A freezer will be a bigger problem. Water doesn't freeze or melt at a cold enough temp. We would want a liquid that freezes at about 20 deg.F or -10 deg.C. It also needs to have a large enough amount of heat to force the phase transformation. I forget the scientific name or this.

Feel free to say I dumb.
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#15102757
Steve_American wrote:In the future we may not be able to provide power at night when solar panels don't work.


Yes we will.

There are plenty of technologies that complement solar to ensure power is available at night .

UAE have a six hour back up sodium battery charged by excess solar in the daytime.
https://www.energy-storage.news/news/ua ... -one-swoop

The UK have Dinorwig pumped hydro Power Station
https://www.electricmountain.co.uk/Dino ... er-Station
and liquid air storage
https://arstechnica.com/science/2018/06 ... e-uk-grid/

Australia have Hornsdale battery storage
https://hornsdalepowerreserve.com.au/
and the virtual powerplant
https://virtualpowerplant.sa.gov.au/

This is all for the future, at the moment the only countries that are 100% renewable for any length of time are using hydro, geothermal and biomass, but several countries are getting close to the point when storing excess energy for use at other times is a viable option. You can see this in the UK, with 12GW of storage in the pipeline over the next 3 years due to the increase in wind and solar.
#15102771
BeesKnee5 wrote:
Yes we will.

There are plenty of technologies that complement solar to ensure power is available at night .

UAE have a six hour back up sodium battery charged by excess solar in the daytime.
https://www.energy-storage.news/news/ua ... -one-swoop

The UK have Dinorwig pumped hydro Power Station
https://www.electricmountain.co.uk/Dino ... er-Station
and liquid air storage
https://arstechnica.com/science/2018/06 ... e-uk-grid/

Australia have Hornsdale battery storage
https://hornsdalepowerreserve.com.au/
and the virtual powerplant
https://virtualpowerplant.sa.gov.au/

This is all for the future, at the moment the only countries that are 100% renewable for any length of time are using hydro, geothermal and biomass, but several countries are getting close to the point when storing excess energy for use at other times is a viable option. You can see this in the UK, with 12GW of storage in the pipeline over the next 3 years due to the increase in wind and solar.

I really, really should read such replies before I reply.
However.
I really doubt that there is enough Lithium (or other rare elements) in the earth's crust to make enough batteries; if we manage to save most of the current population.
I should also mention the environmental damage mining all that lithium, etc. will do. How much CO2 will that release?

In reply to the deniers, I hope you live long enough to eat your words.
Climate science is based on physics which we know very well, and on computer simulations. I posted a thread here about how climate scientists went back and put the correct measured data into the old computer simulations and way over half gave the same sorts of predictions of our future as they did back then. They were wrong only because we added more CO2, etc., into the air than they expected.
Pres. W Bush had a plan to fix Soc. Sec. based on a computer projection of the future economy for 1000 years. Your sort of people had no problem with that computer projection. But, we know physics a huge amount better than we know economics. I didn't like W's "data" (not really data but I hope you can figure out what I mean), but I have a lot more faith in the climate science computer simulations. There are even Russian scientists who are scared to death. How do they fit into your hoax conspiracy theory?
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#15102778
Steve_American wrote:

I really doubt that there is enough Lithium (or other rare elements) in the earth's crust to make enough batteries



We're working on making better batteries.

There are also alternatives, although I recently saw an article about the problems the early examples of devices like molten salt that are showing up.

Efficiency is the low hanging fruit, best bang for buck, and prob the biggest improvement we can make.
#15102779
late wrote:
We're working on making better batteries.

There are also alternatives, although I recently saw an article about the problems the early examples of devices like molten salt that are showing up.

Efficiency is the low hanging fruit, best bang for buck, and prob the biggest improvement we can make.

I think my idea is more practical for Indian villagers than high tech expensive batteries.
#15102801
Refrigerators/freezers at home is the least of our problems.
Assuming nobody is opening them during the nights, which is a fair assumption given most people would be sleeping most of the night. A modern refrigernator/freezer would probably run the compressor for just a few minutes during the whole night as the isolation is fairly robust. I'd be surprized if they use more electricity thorugh the night than a single 60W light bulb or maybe 2 during the same period of time. During the day it probably is more.

We have far more stuff at home that will put load. In particular air-conditioning units. As it happens, the places where solar panel makes more sense, and during the time of the years that the sun is going to provide the most energy also makes it likely that the people living there will want to have air condiotioning. This alone will make the fridge's energy consumption pale in comparison.

Solar panels without any sort of industry-changing battery system would not be sustainable. Traditional batteries are unlikely to be helpful in a large scale. For one, their energy density (volume and weight) are still quite poor and they are very exensive. The materials used to create these are also going to be damaging the environment. Also remember, if you were to transition to 100% renewable with solar/wind as your bulk, you would need large amount of redundancy for energy production and large amount of redundancy for energy storage as to account for time of maintenance and off-time for nighttime, cloudy days (or weeks depending on geography), etc. So you don't need to cover 100% energy production, you need to cover 200 or 300% + 200-300%+ storage.

Other "batteries" such as molten salts and/or water pumping might be helpful for larger scale but I still think you will need to supplement renewable energy with additional sources.

We also have the issue of cities. In suburbia and farmlands you can stick a whole bunch of panels on the properties' roough and that is area that is hit by sun and not being used for anything else (in particular trees/farm). But you cannot reasonable do the same on a tall building. For instance, if you had a modest 7-10 floor building and you cover 100% of that building's roof, you are probably be hard pressed to cover enough energy to run the hallways, elevators and perhaps one of the floors.

Energy efficient devices + on-site battery solutions does not help with energy requirements for public "assets". For instance traffic lights... you need to run those as well.

In the unlikely event that solar were to become the major source of energy, we would need to outproduce our needs by a large amount. We would need significant redundancy in production as to account for rainy days, cloudy days, dust storms, summer peaks as well as our general growth. We could have a scenario where we end up clearing large amounts of terrain on sun-rich areas for this task. The flipside, is that those areas are also the areas that would be growing plants, trees that contribute to CO2 sequestration from the atmosphere.

I think nuclear is the best way forward. It got bad reputation but compared to hydrocarbons its not even playing in the same field as far as safety is concerned. All major accidents of nuclear combined amount for a tiny fraction of people that have died as a result of hydrocarbon energy production. That is not without taking into account global warming as we have no idea the end-result impact of this.
The current generation of Nuclear power, are vastly superior to those that had the major accidents that we remember in "collective memory". A few of the accidents actually would not have occured if the plant's automatic safety measures would have been allowed to proceed and/or humans followed guidelines, in other words, our stupidity got in the way. That being said, newer designs make it extremily unlikely for these accidents to happen. It wouldn't be 100% safe, but it would be pretty damn close, certainly far closer than just pumping poisonous gas into the air we breathe.
Nuclear comes in 2 flavors and the one flavor we have access right now does have a weakness, the byproduct of radioactive waste. Since the topic seems to be around ACC/AGW this does not need to be discussed at length, however suffice it to say that there are methods to minimize this kind of waste, there are technologies that could completely eliminate the "worse" type of waste (the ones that have half-life in the thousands of years) such as thorium-based and/or reactors that can use non-enriched fuels and/or re-cycle waste.

The holy grail ofcourse is fusion energy which is clean, and in theory at least potentially far more efficient than anything that we have come accross (in fact other than using blackholes and/or anti-matter, as far as we know this might be the most efficient way to convert mass into energy). Fusion is something that we have done for decades, so it is possible. The big issue was that for many years we needed to put more engergy in than what we got back, this is no longer the problem. Now the focus is in trying to make this last more than a few seconds as the "successful attemps" have lasted in the orders of seconds or a few minutes. That being said, the consensus is that we should have this technology up and running in the next few decades.

I think we should embrace a combination of nuclear (fission) and renewables (solar/hydro/wind/etc) for the forseable future. Once fusion becomes economically feasable we will have a lot of cheap clean energy, enough that we could afford to literally take carbon off the atmosphere and reduce it to our will. How could we do this? well we could grow trees/plant organic matter to sequester the CO2. For instance, if we grow a few tons of lumber, and use that lumber to build large buildings, the CO2 inside the lumber would be "permanently" sequestered from the atmosphere (as long as we don't burn that building down).

With sufficient cheap energy, we could use areas of the world that are not "productive" during times of the year (higher latitude winter season) and artificially introduce energy in the form of light (large LEDs) and literally force growth and carbon sequestration. We could introduce light into parts of the ocean which have the potential (but not the light) of being productive, we could potentially growth billions of tons of plakton in parts of the ocean which cannot do that because light does not reach (remember, despite the ocean cover 2/3 of the surface of the planet, it is the coastal reefs that actually have the most productivity in the seas). We could artificially change desert landscape by taking salt water and making it fresh.

Our best option is to advance our technology, and to obtain technologies that makes it cheap and possible to have a significant impact in our planet at will (as opposed than as a by-product). Cheap, abundant energy could allow us to literally terraform our own planet at will, that is what we need. I don't think we can do that with traditional solar. I believe we will need nuclear.
Eventually, centuries from now, or even millenia if humanity is still around, we might get "solar" in the form of huge arrays of solar collectors and basically form our very own Dyson Swarm. But that is too far away to think about it.
#15102840
Freezers and fridges are just a small part of the problem. Far more energy is used for heating or cooling houses. Modern buildings are very wasteful in their energy management. Simple architectural changes can save a lot of energy. People have known how to build energy efficient houses for millennia. Even termites know how to build termite heaps in which heat is channeled via special pathways. I live in a rammed earth building like they have been built for millennia. Even at 40 degrees Celsius (104 Fahrenheit) in the Summer I don't need AC to be comfortable inside. The thick clay walls keep me cool in the Summer. In the winter, they keep me warm just with a small wood stove for burning some surplus wood from our land. I don't need to import any energy for cooling and heating.

The topic of passive cooling is too vast to treat in one post.

Many cities are real heat traps in the summer. Lisbon is often 10 degrees hotter than the surrounding countryside. We have to change the way we build houses and plan cities.
#15102849
@XogGyux, I agree that there are a lot of problems with batteries for energy storage. That's why we have to develop alternative storage means such as hydrogen. Hydrogen technology is still in its infancy and as more money is invested in developing hydrogen energy, the current problems such as low conversion rate will be solved. Anyways, with floating wind farms that can be anchored at seabed depth of up to 100 meters, we can probably meet the entire energy demand of the planet. Together with hydrogen for transport and storage, I really think that's the most realistic option for the future.

The problems with nuclear are just too big. Apart from the safety and long-term storage problems, there are the political and security aspects. How are we going to keep them safe if we build hundreds of them in countries with dodgy regimes or connections to terrorists? What do you do when a regime is toppled by some shady militias? Considering history, it is delirious to expect regimes to last thousands of years to keep the nuclear storage safe. Nuclear also requires big companies and centrally controlled management. The suppliers have grown so spares, that if a manufacturer for reactors in Europe or Japan drops out of the business, the whole industry is at risk.

Renewable energy, on the other hand, allows decentralized management and control at the local level.

The only sustainable way to store carbon by organic matter is by integrating it in soil to improve the natural soil fertility. In fact, the surplus of CO2 in the atmosphere is mirrored by a depletion of carbon in soil. Traditionally farmed land with organic matter (manure, humus, mulch, etc.) can have 12% of organic matter or more. After only a few decades of chemical farming, that is often reduced to 1% or less. The planets soil holds several times the amount of carbon in the atmosphere and every percentage point of additional carbon in the soil takes carbon out of the atmosphere.

Wood grown for construction, paper making, etc., will sooner or later end up in the atmosphere again.
#15102855
Atlantis wrote:@XogGyux, I agree that there are a lot of problems with batteries for energy storage. That's why we have to develop alternative storage means such as hydrogen. Hydrogen technology is still in its infancy and as more money is invested in developing hydrogen energy, the current problems such as low conversion rate will be solved. Anyways, with floating wind farms that can be anchored at seabed depth of up to 100 meters, we can probably meet the entire energy demand of the planet. Together with hydrogen for transport and storage, I really think that's the most realistic option for the future.

The problems with nuclear are just too big. Apart from the safety and long-term storage problems, there are the political and security aspects. How are we going to keep them safe if we build hundreds of them in countries with dodgy regimes or connections to terrorists? What do you do when a regime is toppled by some shady militias? Considering history, it is delirious to expect regimes to last thousands of years to keep the nuclear storage safe. Nuclear also requires big companies and centrally controlled management. The suppliers have grown so spares, that if a manufacturer for reactors in Europe or Japan drops out of the business, the whole industry is at risk.


The solution to having sketchy governments access to potentially dangerous sources of energy is not to turn around and bury your head on the ground. We already had that problem with oil with many unstable countries having control/access to those resources. And if you are talking about terrorism potential, I think the last few months of pandemic is evidence enough that our biggest enemies are not some sort of Syrian militia trying to cause a meltdown in a nuclear plant.
For one, nuclear technology is such that even terrorism should find it hard to actually cause a meltdown, also future technology might make it essentially impossible, finally, the dangers of meltdowns are GROSSLY overstated.
Your argument for decentralization goes out of the window the moment you start considering "alternative" storage such as molten salts and water pumping solutions as this wont be available to individuals. Yes, locally placed lithium-ion-style battery packs such as tesla power bank might add to decentralization but the degree of redundancy would make it highly inefficient not to mention environmentally taxing given that the materials used for those batteries are extremely damaging to the environment to obtain.
Renewable energy, on the other hand, allows decentralized management and control at the local level.

I like renewables. I just don't see them becoming the major source of energy. Right now, they are a minuscule part of the energy produced in the US for instance and they are not without environmental problems themselves (e.g. dams and powerplants cause an environmental impact that can cause whole ecosystems to be affected, wind and solar can affect ecosystems as well but on top of that requires batteries. Geothermal might be OK, but the most geothermally active places (Yellowstone) are protected and it will be a tough sell for environmentalists to break a portion of protected environment for energy production.
Remember, we don't just have to achieve 100%, we have to also produce enough to supply transportation which basically is hydrocarbon dependent at this point, we would also have to cover for redundancies and we would also have to account for energy demand increases as population/technologies increases.
With less than 2% of the energy currently being produced by solar in the US, we could take dozens of years for the US to rely "mostly on solar" and it could take a century for the whole world if it is at all possible (it might not be if the resources for battery/semiconductor productions are limited, which they might as they are needed in multiple industries, not just solar).
All in all, if you are serious about addressing this problem, we need a real feasible solution rather than an "ideal" fantasy.
For instance, every few years there is some sort of anti-pipeline protest and controversy... except the alternative transport to pipelines are often by ground with trucks, trains and the damage that those do greatly outweigh the damage of any pipeline ever constructed.
We have to pick our fights carefully.
Like I said, ideally we would have fusion, in the meanwhile fission seems to be the best option and also the safest once you consider environmental damage. The "terrorism" and "meltdown accidents" are grossly exaggerated.

Wood grown for construction, paper making, etc., will sooner or later end up in the atmosphere again.

The only carbon we should be concerned about is fossil one. Ignoring fossil carbon input, we can literally burn as much wood and biofuel as we ever wanted so long as we replant it again because it will net zero at the end. If we burn a whole 100ton rosewood tree and plant another, by the time this one becomes 100ton it will hold the same amount of carbon that we just burned.
The "new carbon" comes from fossil fuels because this is carbon that existed millions of years ago but was taken out of the cycle many million years ago and was not circulating through. So we don't really necesarily need it to be sequestered in the building "forever" per se. We can allow it to circulate, but if we manage to sequester a few trillion tons of this in cities built from carbon-sequestering materials (wood, graphene, composites?) we could essentially ignore all sort of carbons that we put into the atmosphere as long as dont use fossils. For instance, it would be perfectly green to use nuclear power to create ethanol (e.g. greenhouse with artificial LED growing corn) and then burn that ethanol. That ethanol would essentially be carbon neutral (ignoring whatever fraction of carbon it cost to build the nuclear plant to begin with).
#15102860
Some times there is a delay before the ancient synapses kick in.

The first fridges had the compressor on top, it is a lot more efficient that way. We could also double the insulation, there are any number of things we could do.

There are some new nuclear designs that show a lot of promise. In this country, I am pretty sure we will need them near the big cities. Assuming we ever start acting sane.
#15102867
Nuclear has recently performed very poorly.

The mining of uranium and the refining into pellets is carbon intensive.

The investment cost is prohibitive. 10s of billions and in some cases over a decade before any electricity is generated.

It's not that nuclear is a bad idea, its just that renewable are cheaper and provide energy sooner. No nuclear power station has been built without significant state funding.

Many of the thorium and molten salt reactors have been on the cusp of becoming viable for 60-70 years and never delivered.

Fusion is a pipe dream we can't afford to wait for.
#15102878
In "Political Circus" I put forward my plan for ACC.
It is to copy the WWII Lend Lease program.
There the enemy was Ger. and Japanese military men. So, we gave stuff to allies to kill them.
Here the enemy is CO2 molecules. We can't kill them, so we need to keep them from being created and or fix them out of the air.

My plan is for the US Gov. to deficit spend and even do what it did in WWII and change the law so the Fed. could buy bonds directly.**
The resulting cash would be used for R&D, but mostly to build factories to build many millions of solar panels and give them to nations for free (they pay for shipping maybe). We might also buy all other nation's production of solar panels in order to keep them producing too.

Are you guys saying that this is a counter productive plan?
I think the world can't have too many solar panels.
Your thoughts?

.
. ** . See my thread in "Credit and Debt" for proof of this claim.
.
Last edited by Steve_American on 26 Jun 2020 04:47, edited 1 time in total.
#15102882
BeesKnee5 wrote:Nuclear has recently performed very poorly.

The mining of uranium and the refining into pellets is carbon intensive.

The investment cost is prohibitive. 10s of billions and in some cases over a decade before any electricity is generated.

It's not that nuclear is a bad idea, its just that renewable are cheaper and provide energy sooner. No nuclear power station has been built without significant state funding.

Many of the thorium and molten salt reactors have been on the cusp of becoming viable for 60-70 years and never delivered.

Fusion is a pipe dream we can't afford to wait for.


The problem with nuclear is mostly a perception issue. Lots of fear due to cold war, nuclear war and population ignorance. Most people if you ask them what is a nuclear meltdown they think the plant explodes and there is a big mushroom cloud and half the city disappears when the reality is not that, not to mention that this is unlikely to happen with most existing plants and almost impossible with any future plants given the advances in security features.
The price is expensive but companies would happily pay it if there is no social pressures to artificially limit nuclear. The main issue is the fear of future regulations and/or banning due to social perceptions.

It's not that nuclear is a bad idea, its just that renewable are cheaper and provide energy sooner. No nuclear power station has been built without significant state funding.

Many of the thorium and molten salt reactors have been on the cusp of becoming viable for 60-70 years and never delivered.

Here is the thing, the technology to store energy to supply the US during nighttime does not exist let alone the whole world. Even if you get a solar panel on top of every house in America and manage to cover 100% of the electricity during the day, you still need to figure out a way to store it for nights, this technology does not exist. You would likely end like in situations such as Germany which have a decent renewable pie, but then they have to run something during nights, in case of Germany it is hydrocarbon plants.
As far as price goes, nuclear pays for itself after a few years. Yes, it is far more expensive early on, but it later becomes so cheap to run and maintain and it last so long that it ends up coming ahead of fossils in the long run and certainly solar (specially if we include some sort of cost for that elusive battery system that doesn't exist).
The downside is perception, this can be changed and long-time waste. The waste part is grossly overhyped, for one, there have been designs that make have less dangerous products.
Keep in mind, that the radioactive stuff has existed in the ground since the planet existed, the only thing we did was concentrate it. Yes, this adds some risks, but no energy production that exists to date is without risks, and this risk is something that we can have as much control as we wish to have, including putting it inside a cave in the middle of the desert and have the US army watching it until we get a better plan :lol: . Joke aside, the dangers are seriously way overhyped.
#15102883
Steve_American wrote:In "Political Circus" I put forward my plan for ACC.
It is to copy the WWII Lend Lease program.
There the enemy was Ger. and Japanese military men. So, we gave stuff to allies to kill them.
Here the enemy is CO2 molecules. We can't kill them, so we need to keep them from being created and or fix them out of the air.

My plan is for the US Gov. to deficit spend and even do what it did in WWII and change the law so the Fed. could buy bonds directly.**
The resulting cash would be used for R&D, but mostly to build factories to build many millions of solar panels and give them to nations for free (they pay for shipping maybe). We might also buy all other nation production of solar panels in order to keep them producing too.

Are you guys saying that this is a counter productive plan?
I think the world can't have too many solar panels.
Your thoughts?

.
. ** . See my thread in "Credit and Debt" for proof of this claim.
.


My friend, that plan is Cuckoo. I am sorry I don't have a more delicate way to put it.
#15102889
Steve_American outlined his plan for a Lend Lease like program to flood the world with solar panels.

XogGyux wrote:My friend, that plan is Cuckoo. I am sorry I don't have a more delicate way to put it.

Do you know why one line replies are banned?
I think it is because they contain too little info to actually communicate the point.

Do you think it is Cuckoo because the world doesn't need more solar panels?
Or is it because you don't think deficit spending is a good idea?
Or, maybe some other reason?

Please elaborate.

I can't really respond to that one line reply.
.
#15102892
Steve_American wrote:Steve_American outlined his plan for a Lend Lease like program to flood the world with solar panels.


Do you know why one line replies are banned?
I think it is because they contain too little info to actually communicate the point.

Do you think it is Cuckoo because the world doesn't need more solar panels?
Or is it because you don't think deficit spending is a good idea?
Or, maybe some other reason?

Please elaborate.

I can't really respond to that one line reply.
.

All of the above. It is neither politically palatable nor economically feasible for the US to "buy" the whole world solar panels, and it is not just solar panels, it is infrastructure, installation, maintenance, batteries for storage, training of in-ground technicians, and my other issues.
2 I gave you a pretty long explanation with many reasons why solar power (or wind power) cannot be the sole source of energy, it cannot even reasonably make for 50%, not unless somehow you find some sort of extremely cheap to make, maintain and transport "batteries", such technology simply doesn't exist.
So paying with debt a politically and economically questionable "project" that has zero chances of having the impact that you want (decoupling from fossil fuels) is cuckoo as far as I am concerned.

I mean, if we are going to talk about unfeasible projects, maybe you should start with sending a massive array of solar panels into space and beaming the energy via lasers to every country in the world (wouldn't have to worry about nighttime, in space, you can make it so that it is daytime all the time :lol: ).
But again, if you want to seriously tackle our problem, and we do have a problem, you have to deal with reasonable solutions.

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