[Godstud]

@Atlantis Normally I agree with what you say, but your last post was terribly awful and WRONG on so many levels that it beggars the question... were you drunk when you wrote it?

[Rancid]

By the time hundreds of millions will have been vaccinated, it won't be premature.

You are completely undercutting your own argument about a premature vaccine and don't even realize it (you do this a lot). I think your emotional biases is what causes you to do this constantly on pofo.

It takes years of vaccinations across many different population groups to get enough data to prove short term and mid term safety. It would still be premature even after a few million vaccinations. Any vaccine anywhere in the world at this point is arguably premature. Arguably it will take many years for it not to truly be premature.

You will be taking a premature vaccine. You cannot argue that "it won't be premature" by the time you take it. You are lying to yourself and just trying to find some way to fault/bash the west in your god damn fucking retarded postings (your MO on most threads). If you plan on taking it any time in the next year or two, you need to shut the fuck up because that undercuts everything you are "arguing" about immaturity of the vaccine.

[JohnRawls]

Not true, as it takes years of vaccinations across many different population groups to get enough data to prove short term and mid term safety. It would still be premature even after a few million vaccinations. Any vaccine anywhere in the world at this point is arguably premature. Arguably it will take many years for it not to truly be premature.

You will be taking a premature vaccine. You cannot argue that "it won't be premature" by the time you take it. You are lying to yourself and just trying to find some way to fault/bash the west in your retarded postings.

Well it depends how far people would want to reasonably stretch it. The same goes for "safety". It is like testing software, there are certain scenarios that you can test almost limitlessly or forever. Ultimately it is for the specialists to decide what is reasonable and what is not to test. Without having specialist knowledge, there is no way that people can really debate about this. This kinda sounds that i am telling people to shut up but that is kinda the reality. If you are not a specialist in testing software or vaccines then you won't get far on this topic.

[Rancid]

Well it depends how far people would want to reasonably stretch it. The same goes for "safety". It is like testing software, there are certain scenarios that you can test almost limitlessly or forever. Ultimately it is for the specialists to decide what is reasonable and what is not to test. Without having specialist knowledge, there is no way that people can really debate about this. This kinda sounds that i am telling people to shut up but that is kinda the reality. If you are not a specialist in testing software or vaccines then you won't get far on this topic.

Of course, but what we do know is that it is only approved for emergency use. This suggests it is certainly premature by typical standards and processes. Until the emergency use authorization is lifted and a regular vaccination recommendation is made, it is in fact, arguably premature. do you not agree? Specialized knowledge is not needed to make this argument.

Emergency use authorization = premature (to some degree/standard)

Anyway, my point here isn't so much that the vaccine itself is premature, but that atlantis is full of shit all the time. The guy uses every fucking god damn thread to try and make some stupid anti-west point. He tries too hard to the point where he makes contradictory statement and/or accusation while simultaneous enjoying the benefits the west affords him. My point here is, if he's true to his dumb fuck word, he shouldn't take the vaccine at all, not for a very long time. Taking it any time soon undercuts his whole "US blah blah blah fail", "UK blah blah blah fail", "EU blah blah blah fail", "but China rah rah rah success" bullshit.

He's like that jackass that receives an unemployment check, and complains about how unemployment insurance is horrible and communist.

Now we see that the west has come out with a vaccine that is showing very promising results, then this guy comes out basically saying "it's premature, blah blah, politics, blah blah blah"... then turns around and say's he'll take it. His biases and MO tell him to constantly shit on anything positive done in the west. However, like the fucking weasel he is, takes advantage of these positive developments while baselessly and shamelessly bashing it all. That's a weasel, Atlantis is a weasel through and through. Not the kind of guy you could trust for anything.

Personally, I would take it as soon as its generally available.

[ingliz]

it is only approved for emergency use

Of course, the vaccine is not 100% safe, no vaccine is, but it probably works very well after a fashion. The permanently crippled and dead are just the price that needs to be paid by the few to protect society as a whole.

[Rancid]

Of course, the vaccine is not 100% safe, no vaccine is, but it probably works very well after a fashion. The permanently crippled and dead are just the price that needs to be paid by the few to protect society as a whole.

Of course. I think you are not understanding my point here. My point isn't really about the vaccine per say. Read my above post (edited a bit more just now).

I've already stated, I plan to take when I can. I'm in relative good health and do not have a history of allergies or reactions to medications and vaccines. I think I'm good to take it.

[Istanbuller]

I am gonna take it as soon as it arrives. But it shouldn't be mandatory. But it should be voluntarily.

[Drlee]

There will be exponential growth and many more death in the US because people get overconfident due to the vaccine. That'll be the immediate effect. Every specialist knows that it'll take at least 6 months to have an impact on the pandemic, even if the US were to monopolize all vaccines by force.

You do realize how utterly stupid this statement is? Obviously you do not.

"Every specialist" (including this one) does not know that. Every person who gets up from the chair after having the vaccine is virtually guaranteed (after a couple of weeks) not to die from what is now the US #1 cause of death. They are also highly likely not to be a vector to infect others. This has already happened in about 30,000 people.

What about your so-called "overconfidence". Not a legitimate concern unless it changes the behavior of people who have not been vaccinated. In the face of so many people ignoring the guidelines for preventing this disease and fighting efforts to stop it, the very idea is preposterous.

As usual Atlantis, you do not have the knowledge to make the claims that you are making. It would be wise for you to go into listening mode now and not talking mode. Why do you think that Dr, X and I want the vaccine? Because it won't do any good for ourselves and our families for 6 months?

@Drlee, your rant beats anything Trump has ever produced.

Do you set out to make yourself look stupid or is it just a talent you can use on the fly?

[Rancid]

I am gonna take it as soon as it arrives. But it shouldn't be mandatory. But it should be voluntarily.

oh shit, I agree with you.

[Godstud]

Voluntary, sure.

Then again... As an employer of people working in the tourism industry(Restaurant/Bar), we will require our staff to be vaccinated, or they can search for a new job. I can see this happening in most places.

I don't foresee any problems, though, since Thais aren't having anti-mask protests or acting like idiots, when it comes to Covid-19 measures. They're still wearing masks, despite having extremely few cases. Most malls, and big stores have contact tracing, as well.

BTT (Bangkok)

[JohnRawls]

Voluntary, sure.

Then again... As an employer of people working in the tourism industry(Restaurant/Bar), we will require our staff to be vaccinated, or they can search for a new job. I can see this happening in most places.

I don't foresee any problems, though, since Thais aren't having anti-mask protests or acting like idiots, when it comes to Covid-19 measures. They're still wearing masks, despite having extremely few cases. Most malls, and big stores have contact tracing, as well.

BTT (Bangkok)

Yeah, they are protesting the king right now and the government for being corrupt pieces of shits

[Godstud]

@JohnRawls The protests are not huge, if you're been keeping track. Most Thais know that their government has serious problems. Fixing them is a different matter. Still, they're every bit a Democracy as the USA is.

Can you find me a government that isn't run by corrupt pieces of shit?

They are least are handling the pandemic a lot better than corrupt Western governments.

[JohnRawls]

@JohnRawls The protests are not huge, if you're been keeping track. Most Thais know that their government has serious problems. Fixing them is a different matter. Still, they're every bit a Democracy as the USA is.

Can you find me a government that isn't run by corrupt pieces of shit?

They are least are handling the pandemic a lot better than corrupt Western governments.

Dude, we have very good friends that lived and did/do business in Thailand and came back here because the economic situation is pretty crap in Thailand. People literally have trouble with buying food because the whole tourist industry is closed due to Covid. Small businesses in the main cities are also suffering. The military government is not fighting corruption etc while the king is a retard compared to his father.

Thailand's problems have gone a lot further compared to the "West". Like saying corruption exists everywhere is absurd. There are varying levels of corruption that exist accross the world in various forms. Considering that Thailand is worse on the corruption scale compared to Turkey, Egypt, Argentina and very close to Brazil, it is not a very good company.

[Godstud]

Dude, we have very good friends that lived and did/do business in Thailand and came back here because the economic situation is pretty crap in Thailand. People literally have trouble with buying food because the whole tourist industry is closed due to Covid. Small businesses in the main cities are also suffering. The military government is not fighting corruption etc while the king is a retard compared to his father.

I have a business in Thailand, and while the lack of tourism is most certainly hurting the economy, people are not having trouble buying food. That's just a cock and bull story.

Since tourism is pretty much on the rocks(temporarily) many other businesses have popped up, with people realizing that tourism won't be coming back very soon.

Granted, if you have a business in the tourist industry, it's pretty much on hold, for the time being. Most businesses are not reliant on tourism, especially once you get out of the really big tourist areas, like Phuket and Pattaya.

Yes, most Thai people are not happy with the current King. His father was a Philanthropist and a great man, who made the Thai people love the Royal Family. The current King isn't really doing his job, and is just being a playboy... which isn't a change from when he was younger.

Thailand's problems have gone a lot further compared to the "West". Like saying corruption exists everywhere is absurd. There are varying levels of corruption that exist accross the world in various forms. Considering that Thailand is worse on the corruption scale compared to Turkey, Egypt, Argentina and very close to Brazil, it is not a very good company.

What is absurd is you saying that, while knowing nothing about the region. Can you tell me WHY there is corruption in the government, even at low levels? Until you can tell me the reason why there is, I shall choose to ignore your rant, as it's founded in ignorance.

Not knowing about Thailand also leads many people in the West to make assumptions. This is mostly based on ethnocentrism, but there's an Anti-East sentiment that I've noticed, over the years. Some people even like to refer to SE Asia as "3rd world", despite the evidence to the contrary.

As for corruption in the West; in Canada a few years ago, there was a police pension fund where something like $4.5 Billion just "disappeared". Western corruption tends to be top-heavy with just as much, or more money, getting stolen from the people.

There is a Thai election today. I doubt it'll be as insanely disputed as the last US election, and the lunacy surrounding that. That Thai democracy doesn't look like America's, is to be expected.

The government of Thailand, has already set aside hundreds of millions of dollars for vaccine purchases, and for the distribution of the vaccine. They did this over 6 months ago, in preparation.

[B0ycey]

I am gonna take it as soon as it arrives. But it shouldn't be mandatory. But it should be voluntarily.

There is one major issue with a vaccine that has been rushed through for emergency use which is why I believe the vaccine should always be voluntarily. Potential delayed side effects. Testing and verification usually takes years which would route these issues out. How are we to know for sure today that male/female fertility, birth defects or cancers are not a side effect today? That is why in the UK children/pregnant women are not planned on taking the vaccine yet - lack of data. That isn't to say we shouldn't be rolling out the vaccine today, and sure we should be vaccinating the vulnerable now too especially these side effects for them specifically are less significant considering their personal risk against the virus. But anyone who is at a low risk catagory should have a choice. Personally I am more than happy to wait a year to let those who want the vaccine go before me and I will take it when I am more sure it is safe - which I would like to add I am pretty sure it is in any case but not certain.

[Atlantis]

@Rancid, your constant personal attacks don't merit an answer. Anyways, either you didn't read my post of you willfully distort what I'm saying.

The facts remain:

- The US/UK used an emergency approval for political reasons.

- The US's emergency approval under pressure from Trump repeats the exact same mistakes the Trump administration has made since the beginning of the pandemic.

- The emergency approval doesn't do much to fight the pandemic but risks undermining confidence in the vaccine.

- The emergency approval has initiated a deregulatory race to the bottom, in which US regulatory agencies like the FDA and FAA are reduced to rubber-stamping agencies worthy of a banana republic.

- The US/UK are driven by vaccine nationalism.

- The US has tried to monopolize vaccines for its exclusive use, for example by trying to buy foreign vaccine manufacturers

- The US's vaccine nationalism follows it's attempt to monopolize drugs, for example by buying up all stocks of Remdesivir.

- The US is the only major country that did not participate in the international effort to bring vaccines to poorer countries.

- The fact that the UK vaccinated people with a known history of severe allergic reaction shows that they didn't even take into consideration publicly known information about the vaccine, which I as layman, have known for weeks. To believe that they thoroughly examined all data before rubber-stamping the vaccine is hilarious.

I support the vaccination program. That is why I have tried to initiate an informed debate about vaccine safety in this threat. The fact that the US/UK emergency approval undermines vaccine safety and international solidarity has no impact on me personally since it'll only be my turn after hundreds of millions have been vaccinated.

You, @Rancid, @Drlee have no argument whatsoever. That's why you resort to personal insults.

I have posted reliable technical information about the pandemic since January to counter the mindless ranting and conspiracy theories on this forum. Most of what I have predicted was later confirmed. @Drlee, if there is even a grain of honesty left in your body, you will admit that. I have never minded you posing as health care specialist, even though you are clearly out of your depths as a far as the pandemic is concerned. But there is no reason why I should be quiet about your mindless ranting and personal attacks. That would be encouraging abuse.

@Godstud, I'm always willing to discuss any points of difference, if you were to actually point out such a point of difference.

[Godstud]

@Atlantis I think @Drlee was succinct enough. Unwarranted fears do not seem like you. It's more the Republican right-winger's venue.


Vaccine nationalism? Can you please provide a source demonstrating that this is a "thing" to anyone who gives a damn?

[Atlantis]

@Godstud, Drlee's rant has no substance and doesn't address any of my arguments. It's purely inflammatory.

What vaccine nationalism means is clear from the list of facts in my previous post. All of which is public knowledge. If you missed some of it, tell me what you don't know. Blanket accusation without facts or arguments aren't helpful for the discussion.

[ingliz]

the vaccine is not 100% safe, no vaccine is

measles[?]

During this period, VAERS received 3175 US reports after MMR vaccine in adults. Of these, 168 (5%) were classified as serious, including 7 reports of death.

Lakshmi Sukumaran (1,2) et al, Adverse Events Following Measles, Mumps, and Rubella Vaccine in Adults Reported to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS), 2003–2013

1 Immunization Safety Office, Division of Healthcare Quality Promotion, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention
2 Emory University School of Medicine, Atlanta, Georgia


@Atlantis and other anti-vaxxers

If 7 deaths bother you, you will be pleased to know serious events causally related to the MMR vaccine are rare and greatly outweighed by the risks of natural MMR diseases.

[Rancid]

@Atlantis I'm not even going to bother looking at your post. It's not worth my time discussing anything with weasels. We're done, you can carry on with your crap.