Renewable Energy is The Scam We All Fell For - Page 8 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Pollution, global warming, urbanisation etc.
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#15211599
ckaihatsu wrote:I've posted before about massively growing weed or algae as a means to effect a massive carbon sink.


How do they make sure the plants don't rot back into CO2?


And, anything converted into running on electricity, or *replaced* by non-fossil-fuel electricity usage is certainly 'modernization'.


OK. You should look into the efficiency of heat pumps to heat homes over burning gas or oil. Even in Canada.
As I understand it, we may need to bury air pipes in the dirt which is warmer than air in winter.
.
#15211603
Steve_American wrote:
How do they make sure the plants don't rot back into CO2?




OK. You should look into the efficiency of heat pumps to heat homes over burning gas or oil. Even in Canada.
As I understand it, we may need to bury air pipes in the dirt which is warmer than air in winter.
.



Well, yeah, whatever -- that part would have to be *administered*, obviously.

I posted about that 'cold steam' stuff earlier on the thread. I hear ya on the geothermal.
#15213536
Steve_American wrote:
How do they make sure the plants don't rot back into CO2?




You can't, and recent research has been devastating to such proposals..

In addition, there's a question of scale. We're talking gigatonnes, unless we want to give up eating permanently, there isn't enough arable land.

It would be like trying to drain the pacific with a spoon and a childs bucket. Even aside from the obvious problems, where the hell would you put it?
#15213843
late wrote:You can't, and recent research has been devastating to such proposals..

In addition, there's a question of scale. We're talking gigatonnes, unless we want to give up eating permanently, there isn't enough arable land.

It was his plan, and when I asked that he had no idea how to do it.
Frankly, it doesn't seem like he thought about it much before he proposed it.

.
#15213844
Steve_American wrote:
It was his plan, and when I asked that he had no idea how to do it.
Frankly, it doesn't seem like he thought about it much before he proposed it.

.



Yeah, that 'weed' idea is a past contention of mine, from a past thread -- I simply found a video where the guy says to grow lots of weed for carbon capture:


Amazing Lego-Style HEMP BLOCKS Make Building a House Quick, Easy & Sustainable




So, yeah, that's about it. Not much more from me there, since it's not my field. *Politics* has brought me around this environmental stuff, and here we all are.

To 'recap', capitalism has no way to address such *global* matters as money laundering, or global warming.

The *workers* must be allowed to control social production, to transcend private property relations, to adequately address such *global* issues.
#15213854
ckaihatsu wrote:

The *workers* must be allowed to control social production, to transcend private property relations, to adequately address such *global* issues.




Big Oil has neutralised the "workers".

Global problems demand global reach..
#15214139
@ckaihatsu,
ckaihatsu wrote:

Yeah, that 'weed' idea is a past contention of mine, from a past thread -- I simply found a video where the guy says to grow lots of weed for carbon capture:


Amazing Lego-Style HEMP BLOCKS Make Building a House Quick, Easy & Sustainable




So, yeah, that's about it. Not much more from me there, since it's not my field. *Politics* has brought me around this environmental stuff, and here we all are.

To 'recap', capitalism has no way to address such *global* matters as money laundering, or global warming.

The *workers* must be allowed to control social production, to transcend private property relations, to adequately address such *global* issues.


I fundamentally disagree.

The *state* should control the means of production, not the unorganized and ineffective masses. The goal should be to have as much of a competent and unbiased bureaucracy as possible, which deals with these issues, via diplomacy on a global level. Trostky-style internationalist worker control simply will not work - even with mass class warfare happening in the countries. To transition to more sustainable forms of energy, we need *state* action, not *people action.
#15214693
That NEVER works. The bigger things get, the more ineffective and bureaucratic they get. Economies of scale tip over when the state gets involved, because there's no drive forward and the people who love the state hate one thing: competition. Competition is destructive, but it also makes things better through (relatively) quick change. Have you been to your local DMV? You want that for production?

Think of it this way. ONE entity, the *state* as you call it decides it will control all production of electric razors.

Braun, Philips and Norelco make them. Under your scenario, the state would. How would the state determine why I buy a Braun and its features and another person buys a Norelco? The state can't possibly have all the inputs of data the free market has. It can't! It's impossible. So top-down rule from ivory towers never works, because they can't possibly get the data they need to make the decisions that have the best outcomes. They would make too many Norelco razors and they would go to waste because no one would want them. Then there would be misallocations, shortages and artificial dislocations that reverberate throughout the economy. They would try to correct slowly because that's what bureaucracies do and they would have NO pressure from outside forces to fix it. They would understeer, oversteer and break other things and cause unitended consequences. They can never do what the free market can.


#15214708
BlutoSays wrote:That NEVER works. The bigger things get, the more ineffective and bureaucratic they get. Economies of scale tip over when the state gets involved, because there's no drive forward and the people who love the state hate one thing: competition. Competition is destructive, but it also makes things better through (relatively) quick change. Have you been to your local DMV? You want that for production?

Think of it this way. ONE entity, the *state* as you call it decides it will control all production of electric razors.

Braun, Philips and Norelco make them. Under your scenario, the state would. How would the state determine why I buy a Braun and its features and another person buys a Norelco? The state can't possibly have all the inputs of data the free market has. It can't! It's impossible. So top-down rule from ivory towers never works, because they can't possibly get the data they need to make the decisions that have the best outcomes. They would make too many Norelco razors and they would go to waste because no one would want them. Then there would be misallocations, shortages and artificial dislocations that reverberate throughout the economy. They would try to correct slowly because that's what bureaucracies do and they would have NO pressure from outside forces to fix it. They would understeer, oversteer and break other things and cause unitended consequences. They can never do what the free market can.


From an economics perspective, electric razors are not comparable to something like an electric grid.

For example, there is elastic demand for electric razors, but the demand for electricity is relatively inelastic. A hospital, school, or business will not be able to choose to use less electricity when the price goes up.

Another important difference is that an electrical grid must necessarily use public land, or require government forcing private landowners to give up control over part of their land. We do not see easements on our lands when we buy electric razors.

It would be easy to look at history and see if publicly owned or privately owned electrical generation and transmission was more successful.
#15216467
late wrote:
Big Oil has neutralised the "workers".

Global problems demand global reach..



Well, there's the mistake -- you're both *underestimating* the potential of workers' experience and expertise, *and* you're dismissing that workers could have any kind of 'big picture' about what they do.

You're basically touting a line of *statism* here -- that a specialized bureaucratic elite of administrators would somehow be more capable than the workers who actually do the work.

Here's the layout (new diagram!):


Social Production Worldview

Spoiler: show
Image
#15216470
Atulya Mishra wrote:
@ckaihatsu,

I fundamentally disagree.

The *state* should control the means of production, not the unorganized and ineffective masses. The goal should be to have as much of a competent and unbiased bureaucracy as possible, which deals with these issues, via diplomacy on a global level. Trostky-style internationalist worker control simply will not work - even with mass class warfare happening in the countries. To transition to more sustainable forms of energy, we need *state* action, not *people action.



Well, like late, you're finding yourself to be arguing for *Stalinism* -- along with the Stalinists / Maoists / Marxist-Leninists.

That's *ruling class* politics, as in the millennia-long internal factional jockeying between the state-bureaucratic faction, and the merchant-bourgeoisie faction, for hegemony over the working class, in whatever country.

Now that the capitalist economy is *imploding*, the *bourgeoisie* faction is no longer really afloat, so you're shunted off to *statism*, by default.

'Unconscious / zombie politics', it could be termed.
#15217550
ckaihatsu wrote:Well, like late, you're finding yourself to be arguing for *Stalinism* -- along with the Stalinists / Maoists / Marxist-Leninists.

That's *ruling class* politics, as in the millennia-long internal factional jockeying between the state-bureaucratic faction, and the merchant-bourgeoisie faction, for hegemony over the working class, in whatever country.

Now that the capitalist economy is *imploding*, the *bourgeoisie* faction is no longer really afloat, so you're shunted off to *statism*, by default.

'Unconscious / zombie politics', it could be termed.

Tl;dr: Stalinism is the future.

Glad you agree with me, @ckaihatsu. Welcome aboard! :up: :D
#15218333
BlutoSays wrote:That NEVER works.

No, it works perfectly fine for products and services that are natural monopolies, like water supplies, sewers, roads, electric power grids and natural gas distribution, policing, military defense, etc.
The bigger things get, the more ineffective and bureaucratic they get.

I see. I guess that must be why people mostly live in small, separate communities of a few dozen individuals, and not in large nation-states comprising tens or hundreds of millions of people: the small communities have outcompeted the large nation-states.

Oh, no, wait a minute, that's right: here in the real world, the exact opposite has happened.
Economies of scale tip over when the state gets involved, because there's no drive forward and the people who love the state hate one thing: competition.

But there is competition between states, and the inefficiently managed ones get outcompeted. Seems you "forgot" that little detail. Indeed, if all the inefficient little states were not being protected by bigger ones through the international order, they would all be conquered and absorbed into large ones, for, in Dr. Strangelove's delicious phrase, "reasons which must be all too obvious at this moment."
Competition is destructive, but it also makes things better through (relatively) quick change. Have you been to your local DMV? You want that for production?

Your evidence that private firms would do a better job of issuing driver's licenses, etc....?

Oh, no, wait a minute, that's right: you don't have any.

In fact, the evidence is that private firms would just enable worse drivers to obtain licenses, increasing road accidents, because it is profitable to do so. They get the money from the bad drivers, but they don't bear the cost of the resulting accidents. Private interests don't serve the public interest in such cases.

You are also conflating the effect of public sector unions with the effect of public provision of services. Union monopolies are bad enough in the private sector. But at least there, they drive their employers out of business and thereby delete themselves. Public sector union monopolies just take and take and take because their employers can't go out of business (except through war, revolution, or societal collapse).
Think of it this way. ONE entity, the *state* as you call it decides it will control all production of electric razors.

Irrelevant example. Electric razors are not a natural monopoly. We benefit from competition in the supply of electric razors, but not in the provision of water, roads, policing, etc. When Margaret Thatcher privatized water supplies in the UK, the private monopoly suppliers cost more and provided worse service than the public ones. When market conditions enable meaningful competition, competing private providers are more efficient. But there is no credible empirical evidence that when market conditions are such that private providers can't meaningfully compete with each other, they produce goods and services more efficiently than public ones. None. In fact, in the USA, the average cost of electric power is lower and service better in areas served by publicly owned monopoly power utilities than in areas served by privately owned ones.
So top-down rule from ivory towers never works, because they can't possibly get the data they need to make the decisions that have the best outcomes.

GARBAGE. Modern technology makes it a trivial matter to get all the data needed for such decisions. It's more a question of the motivation to use that data to make decisions that serve the community's interests rather than the decider's interests. Sure, when the deciders have to compete with each other for customers' business, Smith's invisible hand ensures they serve the public interest. But when private interests have natural monopolies (or artificial monopoly privileges), they have no interest in doing anything but extracting the maximum rent. At least publicly owned natural monopolies are responsible to voters.
They would make too many Norelco razors and they would go to waste because no one would want them. Then there would be misallocations, shortages and artificial dislocations that reverberate throughout the economy. They would try to correct slowly because that's what bureaucracies do and they would have NO pressure from outside forces to fix it. They would understeer, oversteer and break other things and cause unitended consequences.

All errors that private suppliers also commit when there is no meaningful competition to discipline them.
They can never do what the free market can.

You need to Google "market failure" and start reading.
#15218335
Truth To Power wrote:Please put the smiley closer to the silliness. Otherwise, someone might think you are being serious.

Silliness? What silliness? :?:
#15218398
Truth To Power wrote:
Stalinism was already dead 70 years ago.



Yes and no.

The USSR *defeated* the Nazis in WWII, but even that "socialist" country had its own elitism and increasing class-like stratification:



Once Germany had invaded Russia, the Communist Party set up its own resistance organisation, the FTP. It soon outgrew the Gaullists, since resistance had a class character for most people. The old ruling class had half-welcomed the German forces in 1940 and was collaborating wholeheartedly with them. As in Greece and Italy, it was the lower classes who bore the suffering of the occupation. Some 88 percent of those arrested in the Pas-de-Calais and Nord were from working class backgrounds. While railway workers made up only 1 percent of Brittany’s population, they provided 7 percent of its resistance members. When the resistance seized Paris from the German army in advance of the Allies in 1944, everyone knew that the key controlling force was the Communist Party. The only question—as in Greece and Italy—was whether it was going to use its position to push for revolutionary change or do a deal with de Gaulle to keep capitalism going.

Hope strangled again

In a famous passage, Winston Churchill recalled how he met Stalin in Moscow in October 1944 and said to him, ‘So far as Britain and Russia are concerned, how would it do for you to have 90 percent predominance in Romania, for us to have 90 percent in Greece and go 50-50 about Yugoslavia?’

Churchill wrote down a list of countries with the appropriate percentages next to them, and Stalin wrote a large tick on it. At length I said, ‘Might it not be thought rather cynical if it seemed we had disposed of these issues, so fateful to millions of people, in such an offhand manner? Let us burn the paper.’ ‘No, you keep it,’ said Stalin.250

It was not the resistance fighters in Greece, Italy and France who decided Europe’s destiny, but meetings such as this. At conferences in Tehran, Yalta and Potsdam, Stalin agreed with Churchill and Roosevelt to divide Europe into spheres of influence.



Harman, _People's History of the World_, p. 536
#15218400
@ckaihatsu Nazi Germany was never Socialist. It was straight forward fascism. They were socialist in name only. If you don't believe me, then do some research, as we've posted this 100 times on this forum.
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