[Tex]

In my early days at PoFo, I stumbled into the Economics forum once and got roughed up considerably in a debate with leftists over world oil supplies and their effect on the economy. I quickly understood that I lacked sufficient understanding of energy science to participate in such discussions, so I extricated myself quickly.

I still lack scientific understanding, but would appreciate being educated (scientifically - not politically) by anyone who has knowledge of alcohol fuel technology, as an alternative to petroleum. I have done enough reading to understand that alcohol is superior in many ways to fossil fuels, and that a gradual conversion of gasoline engine technology to alcohol is not unreasonable. Also, being descended from several generations of farmers, the idea of creating more demand for farm products is attractive to me, and seems sensible, with the vast amounts of arable land that lies fallow in the US, and around the world, and with improved farming technology.

I assume that a conversion to alcohol fuel is still not economically or politically viable, but I am very curious as to how far away that viability actually is, and to what extent it could be speeded up with an infusion of taxpayer capital, should the public ever actually commit to the idea.

For example, if mass produced, as efficiently as possible with existing technology, what would a gallon of alcohol fuel likely cost now, and how soon could technology and mass production bring the price into line with that of fossil fuels? If an intelligent program could be devised that would offer incentives to business interests to make large investments, and guarantee loans for small business, how long would it take for a country with the resources of the US to shed its dependence on foreign oil, and keep its own reserves for machinery that does not lend itself to alcohol fuel conversion?

This is an honest inquiry, not intended to be any sort of political baiting, so please educate me. Let's discuss the science and economics before we descend into any sort of political one-upsmanship.

[bradley]

i'd love to see alcohol fuel. For one thing, it would make countries around the world more self-sufficient, since i am sure there are more countries with extensive agriculture, than there are oil-producing countries. Oil would return to being a simple resource (the petrochemicals industry is still massive even without the demand placed on oil by the transport industry) which few would fight wars over. Countries like Saudi Arabia would lose their immunity to Western human rights abuse criticism, for example. Meanwhile those western countries would no longer be major sources of income for these countries and therefore lose the money-fuelled influence in the countries; effectively reducing the sphere of influence of the West. Up to you to decide whether this is a good thing or a bad thing; the way I see it, we get a mixed outcome; we no longer get terrorist fundies that resent the (no longer existent) oil-motivated Western presence in the Middle East; this is great news - no more provocation of terrorism = no more terrorism. I strongly disbelieve they simply attack us, or even hate us, because of our 'different' beliefs and values. The downside is that The West loses a tool which could be used to make the Middle East a more Westernised (in terms of secularisation, egalitarianism, technological advancement, and so on) society. I don't, however, think that our voracity for oil is currently being used is such a way, anyhow, so this downside is minor. A larger downside is that the GDP of these countries would drop massively; having oil resources would still be a benefit to them financially, because of the aforementioned petrochemical industry; but a drop nonetheless.

[Tex]

I was really going after information on the practical aspects, rather than the political, but I agree that a successful alternative fuel could radically change the dynamic between East and West. It seems to me that if alcohol is the sensible alternative it appears to be, some Western country would make a concentrated effort to develop it. The main reason I think it has so much potential is because of the likelihood that small entrepreneurs would develop the technology needed to make it a profitable venture, given a viable market for the product. It seems to me that if a government would "jump-start" the industry, by offering guaranteed incentives, such as price controls or tax breaks for a specified, finite number of years, it would provide the needed incentive for the small businessman or farmer to develop a cost efficient method of extracting the fuel from farm produce. In this way, the dependence on corporate-level technology could be eliminated, and although the profit motive would still be the driving force, it would be on a level much nearer to the actual consumer. Most consumers prefer to support local businesses, as long as the prices are competitive, because of the benefit to their local economy, through jobs, etc.

It is a fact that poorly educated people, worldwide, have understood the basics of distilling alcohol for centuries, and it seems that a little incentive towards developing the efficient mass production capability that would be needed for turning alcohol into a fuel source is a much smaller leap than any other alternative fuel technology currently being studied. While hydrogen may be the best long-term solution, alcohol could become an almost immediate, practical solution, if the consumer could be influenced to demand it. Like all technologies, as its use proliferates and becomes accepted by the consumer, increased production and sales should make prices drop dramatically over a period of several years, helping it to shed its dependence on government controls.

I normally think in terms of what is good for the US, but any country with good farmers and plenty of farmland should be able to make such a plan work.

[bradley]

in that case, have at ye! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_fuel

[PhilosoFlea]

Have you looked into Biodiesel? It can be used in any unmodified diesel engine and can be made from vegetable oil, animal fat, or even from cooking oil. If I had enough land to grow enough sesame seads/rapeseed I would probably try using biodiesel. We need to get rid of our dependance on foreign oil..

[Tex]

Biodiesel is good, but the greatest value would more likely be found in SVO (straight vegetable oil), which is simply used cooking oil. It's only problem is that it must be heated to 160 degrees (to reduce its viscosity) before ignition takes place in a normal diesel engine. This seems like a hurdle that could be overcome fairly easily, with a serious enough approach. At present, there are already people who employ heated fuel tanks, which works fine in moderate weather. In winter, they start the engine with biodiesel, using it also to heat the SVO, and then switch over to SVO when it reachs combustion temperature. Likely, engineers could improve upon this to the point that it would be practical for the average consumer.