F-22 Infrared Footage - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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By Typhoon
#13451723
Nice video to come out of the Farnborough airshow is the display of the F-22 taken with a thermal camera. Its interesting because this is the image that many air-to-air and surface-to-air missiles would see should they ever be fired against the aircraft. Although we done have any nice details like range or the type of camera (other than from FLIR systems) used its clear to see that trying to remain hidden while riding on 20-35k pounds of thrust is pretty much impossible.

[youtube]58N6Plr17GU[/youtube]

Its also a nice display of what the aircraft is capable of in flight. :)
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By Godstud
#13451729
The old F-117 funneled the thrust to cool it before using it as thrust.

Vectored thrust aircraft are pretty cool. :D
By stalker
#13452066
While I'm not a huge fan of stealth, this doesn't really prove anything.

The purpose of a Raptor's stealth is to avoid being detected by enemy radar system in the first place, whose wavelengths are far longer than IR.
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By Godstud
#13452330
True, locking on with any kind of missile usually means attaining a radar lock, even for IR missiles.
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By Typhoon
#13452555
Not nessasarily, with the advent of infrared search and track targets can be aquired visually and missiles cued using this equiment, today this means aircraft flying at a distance of up to 50-90 km can be engaged though even older aircraft can aquire targets on the boresight using the missiles seeker directly.

The F-22 has often been noted to include features to reduce its thermal signature, though videos like this make you wonder if any costs incured in the adoption of these systems is a worth while trade off...
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By Godstud
#13452572
When coming right at you it's likely that the heat signature is miniscule. If directly behind one, with afterburners going, it will not be so. One of the problems with heat-seeking missiles is that they can be "fooled" more easily, especially at longer ranges, which is why Radar-guided missiles on long range missiles are the norm.
By Rilzik
#13452607
All I know is mostly from video games and wiki but if a missile is coming at you from behind, don't you cut thrust, turn and throw some flares/counter-measures. Watch the video while it is turning, the heat sig drops dramatically, then imagine flares dropping out of it. You don't try to out turn a missile with afterburners on.

From what I know the F-22 does incorporate thermal stealth. That only means it has less of a thermal signature relative to other similar aircraft, not that it is undetectable. That doesn't apply when your blasting fuel straight into the turbine (afterburners). Like someone mentioned, the thermal stealth could also be referring to other angles then looking right up the tailpipe.

Cool video, I have never seen a thermal image of a F-22.
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By Typhoon
#13452638
Its quite fair to say that the orientation of the aircraft effects its detection range, the 50-90 km range mentioned was the limits of detection head and tail on for the Su-35's IRST, which makes quite a difference. Interestingly we now have a comparison between several aircraft, apparently captured by the same camera which is a lot more interesting and easier to compare without knowing the specifics. Perhaps FlightGlobal will do us enthusiasts the service of setting up a radar as well next time so we can get some public RCS measurments of the aircraft! :D

[youtube]PLzD1SCk__g[/youtube]

Something on countermeasures, flares (though still popular) are not what they used to be with the advent of filters, dual-band and later imaging seekers. Today the biggest risk to infrared guided weapons are directed infrared counter measures (DIRCM) which use a laser or other directed light to blind the seeker directly. You can see this very well in the video of the Russian President-S DIRCM, though these systems are yet to make it to fast jets.

[youtube]hHem1vrVl6o[/youtube]

Radar-guided missiles on long range missiles are the norm.

Largely because the west has been very unimaginative with its seekers, Russia equipped many of its BVR missiles (like the R-40 and R-27) with IR and passive RF guidance in addition to active or semi-active radar. Though unfortunately seem to have ran out of money for further developing the latest missile.
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By Dave
#13477349
stalker wrote:While I'm not a huge fan of stealth, this doesn't really prove anything.

The purpose of a Raptor's stealth is to avoid being detected by enemy radar system in the first place, whose wavelengths are far longer than IR.
Typhoon wrote:Not nessasarily, with the advent of infrared search and track targets can be aquired visually and missiles cued using this equiment, today this means aircraft flying at a distance of up to 50-90 km can be engaged though even older aircraft can aquire targets on the boresight using the missiles seeker directly.

The F-22 has often been noted to include features to reduce its thermal signature, though videos like this make you wonder if any costs incured in the adoption of these systems is a worth while trade off...

While I am a fairly strong critic of the obsessive focus on LO in American aerospace development, this quote from The Strategy of Technology is appropriate:

The Strategy of Technology wrote:Another common method of achieving surprise is through the exploitation of small advantages. Sometimes very small technological differences can be decisive; for example, in air combat during World War II, a speed differential of 20 miles per hour was crucial, even though it was only a small percentage of the total speed of the two airplanes involved. A 10 percent performance advantage in a radar can work a similar result. In war, there are very few prizes for having the second best equipment, even if it is almost as good as the enemy's; if before the combat you thought yours was better, the resulting surprise could be as disastrous as the actual inferiority.

Sometimes surprise can be achieved by deliberate manipulation of the expectations of the enemy, through the design of military equipment to maximize certain crucial variables at the expense of others. The Spitfire was designed to have a faster rate of climb and more firepower than the Messerschmitt, yet it was inferior in most other respects. It was then employed in an operational environment which made use of its advantages and minimized its disadvantages. The result was the disaster to the Luftwaffe that we call the Battle of Britain. Yet, to an aeronautical engineer or an aerodynamics scientist, the Messerschmitt was clearly the better airplane. German scientists and pilots alike were victims of a deliberate policy of technological surprise.

The above example is worth studying. In particular, it should be noted that victory was produced by the combination of aircraft design and strategy, which required careful analysis of far more than aerodynamics and engineering. The victory was won by military decisions, not scientific theories.

The Strategy of Technology wrote:Small Advantages

The notion that small advantages cannot be decisive stems from an imperfect understanding of the military arts. There is no prize for second place in combat. A system that is second best in each of ten areas is excellent until the moment it must be used in combat; then it is nearly worthless. Many examples of small decisive advantages come to mind: for example, in an air battle conducted with air-to-air missiles at long ranges, a two-mile difference in radar ranges can result in one side being destroyed before it even detects the other. Small percentage improvements in missile accuracy can result in enormous increases in target kill probabilities. Moreover, if you have misgauged your position on the technological S-curve (see the section on the nature of the technological process), what is expected to be a marginal improvement may in reality be quite a large one. Refusal to make small improvements usually stems from lack of desire to improve the force at all; that is, from failure to conduct technological pursuit and exploit your advantages to leave the enemy well behind.


The F-22's reduced radar and infrared signatures give it the following advantages:

1) Reduced distance of detection, in turn reducing the time to intercept. This increases the enemy's OODA loop (observation component).
2) Reduced target for tracking systems, which in turn reduces the Pk of anti-air systems against the F-22
3) F-22 can detect bogies before they detect the F-22, making BVR combat asymmetric in favor of the F-22

Of course, these advantages do not exist at a vacuum. It must be asked at what cost these advantages come, and not merely financial cost. Shaping an airframe for LO necessarily reduces the aerodynamic performance of the airframe, in turn increasing weight as well. Materials needed for stealth are costly to manufacture (the F-22 mid-fuselage requires 20,000 man hours of riveting) and maintain. The increased cost of procurement reduces the number of aircraft that can be procured. As sortie rates increase exponentially with aircraft numbers, this represents a geometric decrease in firepower.
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By Typhoon
#13477890
It must be asked at what cost these advantages come,

This is for all the points mentioned above why I think the PAK-FA will be an interesting aircraft to watch, it more balanced use of low observability sould lead to more balanced performance and perhaps a bit more balanced price, though I doubt US industry could manufacture the PAK-FA much more cheaply than the F-22.
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