[Piano Red]

Do I need to say "I told you so", or would that just be redundant?

The F-22 is going to be produced in more numbers, there shouldn't be any doubts about it. Even the 12 approved for in the article are just the bare minimum to keep the Production Line up and running.

While I can mention that I understood and backed Gates' decision not to continue to program in the short-term, I can't say i'm surprised that the Air Force lobby behind the F-22 (both retired and active) in the Pentagon got Congress to overrule him.

Source

F-22 Funds Approved in Wee-Hours Vote

By William Matthews
Published: 17 Jun 2009 17:04



It hasn't flown in combat yet, but the F-22 stealth fighter prevailed in a life-or-death battle in an early-morning vote June 17 by the House Armed Services Committee.

A vote early June 17 by the U.S. House Armed Services Committee means that the Pentagon will pay for work to begin in 12 more F-22 jets, even though Defense Secretary Robert Gates wants the program to end.

After more than 16 hours of squabbling over the 2010 defense budget, weary committee members voted 31-30 at 2:30 a.m. to keep the F-22 program alive by making a $369 million down payment on 12 more planes.

U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates had intended to end F-22 production at 187 fighters, but House lawmakers overruled him.

The $369 million would buy advance procurement parts to begin production on a dozen new fighters. Ultimately, the planes would cost about $2.8 billion.

The advance procurement money would be taken from funds budgeted for Energy Department cleanups at nuclear weapons sites, a House aide said.

Although it is the Air Force's most advanced and most expensive fighter, the F-22 has never been flown in combat, a point Gates has stressed repeatedly in appearances before Congress.

When he announced April 6 that he wanted to end F-22 production, Gates said, "For me, it was not a close call. … The military advice that I got was that there is no military requirement for numbers of F-22s beyond the 187."

In the past, the Air Force has said it needed 381 F-22s. More recently it lowered the number to 243 until Gates put a 187-plane cap on the program.

But the fighter is popular in Congress, where it is praised as providing the Air Force with a high-tech advantage over potential foes, and is prized for creating jobs. Plane maker Lockheed has emphasized that the F-22 program employees 25,000 workers directly and another 90,000 in companies that produce F-22 parts in 44 states.

The amendment to save the F-22 was introduced by Rep. Rob Bishop, R-Utah.

"We would liked to have funded a full buy of 12 aircraft," an aide to Bishop said. But Armed Services Committee Chairman Rep. Ike Skelton prohibited amendments that would add to the overall cost of the defense budget.

Bishop was able to shift $369 million for the F-22s from defense environmental cleanups at sites that are projected to be ahead of schedule or are at risk of not being able to spend money allocated for 2010, the aide said.

It's enough to keep the F-22 production line from shutting down, but Bishop and others on the committee believe the Air Force needs more than 12 additional F-22s, he said.

While the Armed Services Committee was saving future F-22s, the full House approved spending $600 million to buy the final four planes that Gates wants. Money for those planes is included in a $106 billion "emergency supplemental" bill used to pay for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Language in that bill prohibits using the F-22 money to shut down the F-22 production line, and it permits the Defense Department to consider building a less capable version of the F-22 for sale overseas.

The war-funding bill thwarts Gates' efforts to end another aircraft program, the C-17 cargo plane.

Gates said the 205 C-17s that are already in the fleet or under construction are enough, and he included no money in the 2010 defense budget for additional C-17s. But the House and Senate added $2.7 billion to war-funding bill to buy eight C-17s and seven smaller C-130J cargo planes.

The additional C-17s are "pure pork," said Christopher Hellman, a defense budget analyst for the Center for Arms Control and Non-Proliferation. Buying more C-17s "can only be characterized as a jobs program."

And C-17 maker Boeing has done just that. In February the company boasted that C-17 production sustained 30,000 jobs in 43 states, with concentrations in California, Texas, Missouri and Connecticut.

[Igor Antunov]

Excellent. More potential target practice for the S-400 Triumf. The costlier the aircraft, the greater the loss when it turns into flying scrap metal.

[Oxymoron]

Excellent. More potential target practice for the S-400 Triumf. The costlier the aircraft, the greater the loss when it turns into flying scrap metal

The S-400 has not proven itself to be as good as marketed.

[Typhoon]

They appear to have managed to squeeze a few more attrition replacements out of the line but this is a long way from giving the F-22 a future, nor does it solve the problems that put the F-22 on the rocks in the first place. Its just too expensive and buying small batches to keep the line ticking over is not a remedy to this.

The S-400 has not proven itself to be as good as marketed.

What has the S-400 been marketed as exactly?

[Igor Antunov]

It's been marketed as being better than the S-300 which means it's damn good.

[Piano Red]

Typhoon

They appear to have managed to squeeze a few more attrition replacements out of the line but this is a long way from giving the F-22 a future, nor does it solve the problems that put the F-22 on the rocks in the first place. Its just too expensive and buying small batches to keep the line ticking over is not a remedy to this.

Yeah...yeah....yeah....

Don't hold your breath. I fully expect more orders to be made as time progresses, especially as the F-15C fleet nears the end of its service life.

The point of the matter is that the F-22 is far from dead, and no amount of denial is going to change that.

[Typhoon]

I fully expect more orders to be made as time progresses, especially as the F-15C fleet nears the end of its service life.

Its the faffing around thats the worst, either export the aircraft and build it in quantity or close down the line and move on, the F-22 has become a protracted procurement problem for the USAF and theres no benifit in that.

[War Angel]

The point of the matter is that the F-22 is far from dead, and no amount of denial is going to change that.

Dead, no. The most important aircraft of its time (What IS its time, anyway? It's been around since the late 1980s and it still hasn't seen any combat, as far as I know) ? I don't know... it's far too expensive. Most countries on Earth would not be able to buy more than a handful.

[Igor Antunov]

You could give a few thousand of them to China to pay off your debt.

[Oxymoron]

Or we can tell them to go fuck themselves.

[Igor Antunov]

The creditor-debtor relationship is one of master and dog. You are the dog, if you become insolent, your master will put you down. US corporations have trillions invested in China and other countries. Refusal to pay back what you owe would mean these critical assets become Chinese property, and the property of whoever else loses their trust in you, the insolent debtor.

This economic crisis has proven just how tight China's grip on western testicles is. If you think China depends on you as much as you do on her, you are sorely mistaken.

I refer you to this excellent analysis by pikachu, our resident pokemon:



In other words, the bitch ain't dressed in bright blue. Even if China's growth is slashed by a massive 50% from 2009 figures, she will continue to grow, while you sink like a concrete block in a cesspool.

[Oxymoron]

I was joking Igor, I realise its hard to judge over the internetz sometimes.

[politburo player]

Excellent. More potential target practice for the S-400 Triumf. The costlier the aircraft, the greater the loss when it turns into flying scrap metal.

I expect those I-400 sites would be neutralized before any F-22 was in range.

Besides, Russia only has 2 batallions, with 8 launchers and 32 rockets per batallion. Another 5 batallions were planned by 2010, before budget cuts.

That's not a lot of defense for a country that spans 9 time zones...

[alyster]

S-400 Now I remember why I love PoFo, it's becaus eof the humor.


Anyhow from the headline I was hoping that US started to export the Raptor or has come out with a small upgrade. 12 more units isn't a big victory. They should sell it to japanese.

[Typhoon]

Almighty necro post, move along nothing to see here the F-22 is still dead.

and 32 rockets per batallion.

Can up to 128 depending on configuration, the 9M96 series of missiles are packed four to a canister like the PAC-3.

[politburo player]

Almighty necro post, move along nothing to see here the F-22 is still dead.

Compared to what?

If you thought the F-15 was cool in 1991, this plane is 10X as badass, and there isn't a missile or aircraft that will find it, much less take it down. The only people you will find rallying against the F-22 are America haters who insist that yet to be deployed Russian missile/aircraft prototypes will somehow counter the already deployed 187 Raptors.

[Typhoon]

Compared to what?

Compared to nothing, the F-22's production run has been cut, its a dead program because of its own cost, which is the main reason for people to rally against the F-22.

and there isn't a missile or aircraft that will find it,

There are plenty of things out there that can see the F-22, plenty more that could shoot it down.

[Suska]

Do I need to say "I told you so"

All you need to say is "too big to fail", but "pork" will do.

[Igor Antunov]

If you thought the F-15 was cool in 1991, this plane is 10X as badass, and there isn't a missile or aircraft that will find it, much less take it down. The only people you will find rallying against the F-22 are America haters who insist that yet to be deployed Russian missile/aircraft prototypes will somehow counter the already deployed 187 Raptors.

Compared to the latest SAM's the F-22 is a snail with a giant target on it's brittle shell.

[MB.]

Superb necroposting, gentlemen.