[Typhoon]

And Typhoon, a great summary, I enjoyed reading it.

Thanks, I enjoyed writing around these big events.
One of these days I will get a blog for this kind of thing...

[Igor Antunov]

POFO provides blog section. I'd be your number one reader

[Piano Red]

Finally! After three years of delays and platitudes from Sukhoi this day has been a long time coming. Personally I think it looks pretty good for the Russian's first stealth design (and the first one outside the US to boot).

Aside from the somewhat conservative design lineage, the wing geometry looks quite interesting, and given Sukhoi's historical ability in that field I really want to see what it can do.

My initial first impressions of the T-50 (and I really did mumble this to myself when I saw the first pic) were: "My god, it's the bastard love child of a three-way between an F-22, YF-23, and a Su-27!"

Good god. The resemblance is uncanny at best.


http://i48.tinypic.com/3306wy9.jpg
http://www.military.cz/usa/air/in_service/aircraft/yf23/images/YF23_PAV2_trysky01.jpg

It does look very beautiful though, lines are very sleek and that cockpit is practically hanging off the fuselage so the pilot is guaranteed to have a ridiculous visual/situational awareness. The semi-blended wing design is...rather ruthlessly practical, and extremely dangerous looking. I imagine it will be a more ferocious dogfighter, compared to the "ambush-predator" that the F-22 is.

Oh and nice touch with that IRST pod too, my hat is off to the Sukhoi engineers. They probably left some "design evolution space" in the airframe's avionics so they can upgrade to a full-scale HMD system once they catch up to the US' current tech level in the next few years.

.....With that said, it's just not going to be as stealthy as the F-22 Raptor is. Sorry to bust the resident Russophile fanclub's bubbles.

Those big intakes and the rounded engine thrusters (yes, I know they aren't the final version, that's not the point) pretty much ensure that while this aircraft will have a very low RCS (Radar Cross-Section for the uninformed) than pretty much any 4th Gen aircraft bar none, it still won't enjoy the kind of full-aspect stealth that planes like the F-22 and F-35 have. I've heard from friends that it might have a RCS ratio of 0.5 M^2 or more, which is larger than the Raptor's, but that hasn't been confirmed yet.

Here's a great Blog entry from an AviationWeek engineer/commentator on the bird for those interested in the kind of buzz the T-50 is generating among Western analysts.

Igor Autunov

For this role it has to look like that. Anyway, it's got a smaller and more streamlined delta wing configuration (plasma stealth implemented?)

Hell no, whatever gave you that idea.

This thing does not have Plasma Stealth.

and the wings are positioned further back from the cockpit, which implies greater maneuverability than the Raptor.

....also no.

It's just one of Sukhoi's trademark design preferences with regards to wing geometry. They tend to be pretty conservative in that department.

It's a beautiful aircraft, right there beside the raptor, however the PAK-FA looks more integrated and futuristic, as if it's carved from a single piece of material It will look and fly much sweeter when it's painted, and fitted with the intended engines designed for it.

Now you're just wanking about it.

Cute.

Looking directly at the specs, it seems to be an improvement on the F-22, no doubt they wanted to better it:

Same with this.

Until confirmed specs get released, you're just as ignorant as the rest of us are, and considering that this is just the prototype you really shouldn't be making such statements in haste.

Typhoon

he aircrafts exterior is clean and smooth

You didn't notice those nuts and bolts indentations?

I'll say it's very Russian-like.

Though considering how Russian aircraft in general have to endure much more strenuous operating conditions I can't say i'm real surprised.

Many have expressed the opinion that Russia's first true low obserable design would find it difficult to compete with western design experiance and expected features harking back to the F-117.

That's pretty much a given.

I don't see why you'd try to argue or dispute the obvious lead the US has in the stealth design department considering how early the US was toying with the technology with prototypes such as Project Rainbow, OXCART, and Tacit Blue.

overall the PAK-FA cedes little in its low observability features

I'd beg to differ, as I stated in my opening remarks.

In terms of avoinics the aircraft is still coming together but drawing upon the Su-35 for its development, one intersting feature is that the FLIR/IRST sensor retains pride of place afront the PAK-FA's nose and with a detection range of over 50 km in frontal aspect this could be a game changer in future air combat.

I'd agree, especially as it increases the aircraft's frontal aspect RCS.

It's obvious it's meant for close-range combat though, when in all likelihood most combat will occur at much further ranges.

In summary this has been an amazing first look at the PAK-FA which has certainly met 'all our expectations'. Russia appears to have developed a worthy competitor to the F-22, which amusingly could perhaps be the shock that restarts Raptor production because the F-35 is certainly looking like a rat dog now!

I was thinking the exact same thing.

Boy do I wish I was a fly on the wall at the Pentagon's Air Staff office right now. The USAF brass are probably grinning about how they'll be able to fearmonger Congress into keeping the F-22 production lines opens for another decade or so.

""Look at what the Russians have! We need more F-22s from your districts or we'll DIE!!!11111"

I doubt it being the F-35's superior however, despite some of the hopes you guys may have. There's still a lot of catching up Russia needs to do in R&D before i'd lean towards this plane having an advantage over the Lightning's avionics suite.

EDIT: Apparently, word is coming through on the Grapevine that the USAF brass want this bird's Reporting Name to be the "Firefox"....

[Igor Antunov]

I enjoyed your summary Piano, despite your obvious anti-russian bias.

Apparently, word is coming through on the Grapevine that the USAF brass want this bird's Reporting Name to be the "Firefox"....

Firefox? Best internet browser, best fighter, sounds about right.

[NYYS]

Firefox? Best internet browser, best fighter, sounds about right.

holy shit, keep it in your pants

EDIT: Apparently, word is coming through on the Grapevine that the USAF brass want this bird's Reporting Name to be the "Firefox"....

Firefox... I feel like that was taken. What's the Mig-25?

oh nvm it's Foxbat. That seems pretty close to me.

[Nikita]

In summary this has been an amazing first look at the PAK-FA which has certainly met 'all our expectations'. Russia appears to have developed a worthy competitor to the F-22, which amusingly could perhaps be the shock that restarts Raptor production because the F-35 is certainly looking like a rat dog now!

PAK FA will have certainly got those western military analysts who beat the "Russia can only redesign old Soviet crap" line rethinking their cue.

Apparently, word is coming through on the Grapevine that the USAF brass want this bird's Reporting Name to be the "Firefox"....

Wow that's so lame: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firefox_(film)

[Igor Antunov]

holy shit, keep it in your pants

I would personally call it: 'Raptor Jesus', because this aircraft gets on the raptors back and rides it to the ground. Then says 'thanks', and finds another raptor to ride to the ground.

[Piano Red]

Igor Antunov

I enjoyed your summary Piano, despite your obvious anti-russian bias.

Funny how you categorize anti-Russian bias as not wanking off to a prototype's every curve.

Firefox? Best internet browser, best fighter, sounds about right.

I prefer Chrome.

....and you've obviously not seen the 1982 film that is still a cult classic among USAF fighter jocks.

The one where Clint Eastwood steals the MiG-31 "Firefox" that can fly hypersonic and has a Brain-Computer avionics system.

[youtube]4yySrcLlSmc[/youtube]

Nikita

Wow that's so lame: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firefox_(film)

Frankly i'm torn between thinking whether it's fucking hilarious, or fucking awesome.

Igor Antunov

I would personally call it: 'Raptor Jesus', because this aircraft gets on the raptors back and rides it to the ground. Then says 'thanks', and finds another raptor to ride to the ground.

*hands Igor a condom*

...So you don't catch something while you're having sex with it.

[Nikita]

Some different angles:
http://i50.tinypic.com/2rxcm7k.jpg
http://i47.tinypic.com/so1u6p.jpg

[Thunderhawk]

# Empty weight: 43,430 lb (19,700 kg)
# Loaded weight: 64,460 lb (29,300 kg)
# Max takeoff weight: 83,500 lb (38,000 kg)
# Powerplant: 2× Pratt & Whitney F119-PW-100 Pitch Thrust vectoring turbofans
* Dry thrust: 29,300 lb (130 kN) each
* Thrust with afterburner: 35,000+ lb (156+ kN) each
# Fuel capacity: 18,000 lb (8,200 kg) internally, or 26,000 lb (11,900 kg) with two external fuel tanks

Performance

...
* Thrust/weight: 1.08 (1.26 with loaded weight & 50% fuel)

loaded weight = 64,460 lb
50% fuel = 9,000 lb
total = 73,460lb

Dry thrust = 29,300 lb
x2 = 58,600

73,460/58,600 = ~1.25

Looks like the ratio given in the quoted specs are inverse, the number represents the weight/thrust ratio, not the thrust/weight ratio. Since such a simple thing was wrong, the rest of the specifications which are inherently suspect (military info on the net and all) became unreliable.


Engines are changable (within a range), the current engine design should not be used when commenting about RCS or power to weight ratios. Tinkering with the intake geometry can be done relatively easy and done later with a kit.


Does the PAKFA have any external hard points for fuel tanks?

[Typhoon]

Piano Red!, long time no see, Bill makes some interesting observations.

Firefox is a pretty interesting nickname for the aircraft considering its positive pop cult reference, perhaps the Pentagon is paying Sukhoi back in branding for giving the F-22 a reason to exist again. It would be hard to imagine congress funding the F-22 to take down the Firefart I suppose

I think it is important to stress that the aircraft is a test vehicle and some aspects of its design remain unknown. The aircrafts top skin is missing, this gives a great view of its construction which is modern and of good quality, comparable to the F-35 as can be seen from lockheeds production line:

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/data/asse ... 25_hr1.jpg

While the aircrafts rounded nozzels will certainly increase its radar cross section, its only from certain viewing angles; behind, directly above and below. The latter would only be an issue for the maneuvers of within visual range (WVR) combat but these are angles that all stealth aircraft fall foul of and Sukhoi's trade for vectored flight and engine performance are well reasoned. For the former puts the requirement of the enemy to position itself behind the aircraft to see it and the nature of the rest of the aircraft doesnt allow that kind of positioning to occur.

In terms of the general design as a stealth aircraft its clear from how its features compare to the F-35 and F-22 rather than the F-117 that the aircraft is not of a previous generation it terms of its shaping. We know that Russia has extensive experiance of RAM because of its retrospective application to older aircraft as well as the newer radar designs, compresor faces and several other applications such as NII STALI's Nakidka. The RCS figure of 0.5 M^2 was released by the Indian MoD after a delegation paid a visit to the aircraft a month back, I would be very suprised if it was accurate. After seeing the PAK-FA it would be difficult to say with confidence where Russia is lagging on stealth design (if at all), time gives little comparison in achievement.

I dont think the FLIR window will be a major detractor of RCS as it will no doubt be treated with RAM, plus the housing may very well change with the production version. The aircraft will eventually come with a HMD system, a prototype was shown at MAKS last year but our test pilot was in traditional attire for the first flight.

The FLIR will certainly be a huge boost for the PAK-FA in WVR combat but its performance will give it application outside WVR combat, multi-band sensors are certainly the way forward for air combat. Its a good point to note what was stated about the PAK-FA from the start; that it would incorporate low observability but not at the cost of performance, the F-22 will likely be stealthier overall but it can still be out maneuvered by an Indian Su-30. In my opinion the single engine, over-weight, over-cost, stealth/role compromised F-35 has very little going for it at the moment, other than DAS.

Great angle Nikita, the engine and stinger are shown to great effect here, it does make you wonder the if PAK-FA will put a tail radar a'la Su-34 in that singer?

[Thunderhawk]

@ W01f

That is an F-15. Great plane and all.. but this isnt a thread about various military fighters, its just about the PAK-FA

[W01f]

You're right, can't believe I didn't recognize it.

More on topic, people are saying the T-50 looks like a YF-23, but I don't really see anything other than a slight resemblance.

[Thunderhawk]

Similar demands which push the boundaries within similar technological MICs tend to deliver similar results.

Tu-144 vs Concorde..