[Zerogouki]

He could have gotten just a big 'fuck you' by handing over some or all of his weapons.

LOLWUT? How would that have been a "fuck you"? He'd basically be proving us correct about his WMDs, and in doing so, he'd be giving us MORE justification for removing his ass from power.

once they were in Syria, the Iraqis were never going to see them again. Case in point was the previous loss of Iraqi aircraft flown into Iran at the start of Desert Storm.

Holy hell, do you know anything at all about Middle Eastern politics or religion or anything? This is the worst example that you could possibly give.

The following apply to the period from 1979 to 2003:

Syria/Iraq - Arab
Iran - Persian

Syria/Iraq - Sunni
Iran - Shia

Syria/Iraq - ruled by the secular Ba'ath party
Iran - ruled by religious fundamentalists

Are we noticing a pattern yet?

Unless of course the savings were to go into other areas that might save soldiers... like investing in a program that might actually have a future, unlike the DragonSkin 'slighty better maybe depending on who you ask and when'.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragonskin#Testing...

In 2007, NBC News had independent ballistics testing conducted of Dragon Skin versus Interceptor body armor. Retired four-star general Wayne A. Downing observed the tests and concluded that although the number of trials performed was limited, the Dragon Skin armor performed significantly better.

Weapon review website Defense Review also published an article similarly dissenting, noting that in their test and review of the Dragon Skin armor, they had found that it was "significantly superior in every combat-relevant way to U.S. Army PEO Soldier's and U.S. Army Natick Soldier Center (NSC)/Soldier Systems Center's Interceptor Body Armor"

The Army wanted to hold and inspect the vests for 1–2 weeks before shooting at them, and Pinnacle wanted them shot at right away from out of the box because they said they feared the Army tampering with them in order to save their currently cheaper body armor program.

Remember when the XM8, which was vastly superior to the M4, was scrapped for cost reasons?

Karl Masters, director of engineering for Program Manager - Soldier Equipment, said he recently supervised the retest and commented on it. "I was recently tasked by the army to conduct the test of the 30 Dragon Skin SOV-3000 level IV body armor purchased for T&E [tests and evaluation]," Masters wrote. "My day job is acting product manager for Interceptor Body Armor. I'm under a gag order until the test results make it up the chain. I will, however, offer an enlightened and informed recommendation to anyone considering purchasing an SOV-3000 Dragon Skin—don't. I do not recommend this design for use in an AOR with a 7.62x54R AP threat and an ambient temperature that could range to 120 F. I do, however, highly recommend this system for use by insurgents..."

That last guy sure sounds like an objective source of information with no possible bias at all

They've already misled you once, how do you know they haven't also mislead you with their testing materials?

We tell them that for every 100 vests that we buy from them to be issued to our troops, one will be selected at random for testing. If they bullshit us, we pull the plug on the contract, revoke their corporate charter, and throw them in prison for fraud, treason, reckless endangerment of our soldiers in time of war, and anything else that we can think of.

We won't even need to actually test the armor. We just make the threat, and they shit their pants.

[Social_Critic]

This armor can easily be defeated. I'm not about to describe how it can be done because I don't want to help the enemy, but eventually one of them will figure it out. The best solution is to get our troops out of Iraq and Afghanistan, and stop wasting our money there.

[Igor Antunov]

[youtube]y1CeBOWm67A[/youtube]

Biomechanical testing of the Lockheed Martin ruggedized HULC exoskeleton is now underway at the U.S. Army Natick Soldier Research, Development and Engineering Center in Natick, Mass. The testing is expected to help shape future requirements for the HULC based on feedback from soldiers.

For seven weeks, U.S. Army warfighters will be evaluated to assess the effects of load carriage with and without use of the HULC exoskeleton. Biomechanical testing will measure changes in energy expended by users, assessing how quickly individuals acclimate to the system and whether there is a reduction in metabolic cost.

Testing will also determine if there is an improvement in metabolic efficiency as measured by oxygen consumption per unit total mass, when wearing the ruggedized HULC as compared to not wearing the device under identical load, speed, grade and duration conditions.

Lockheed Martin's HULC is an un-tethered, battery powered, hydraulic-actuated anthropomorphic exoskeleton that provides users the ability to carry loads up to 200 pounds for up to 20 kilometers on a single battery charge over all terrains. HULC's design allows for deep squats, crawls and upper-body lifting with minimal human exertion.

An advanced onboard micro-computer ensures the exoskeleton moves in concert with the operator. HULC is an innovative solution that improves endurance and reduces the risk of injury to the soldier.

"Our latest generation of the HULC design provides unmatched flexibility, strength and endurance," said Jim Ni, HULC program manager at Lockheed Martin Missiles and Fire Control.

"It will enable soldiers to do things they cannot do today, while helping to protect them from musculoskeletal injuries."

The Department of Veterans Affairs reports that the most prevalent service-connected disabilities stem from musculoskeletal system injuries.

Following successful biomechanical evaluations, the ruggedized HULC system will transition to a series of field excursions to measure its utility in simulated operational environments.

Read more: http://www.defencetalk.com/hulc-robotic ... z1QruRVOOe

The limited battery charge will keep it a small scale device limited to short excusions, and it seems like it could become a liability if damaged in a confrontation, rendering the wearer immobile while he struggles to take it off in the heat of battle. It's incomplete. Needs armor platting and a better energy source.

[Wolfman]

^ In other words, it's a useless death trap for the next few decades while DARPA hopes the company involved actually makes the damn thing.

[Xbow]

I'm not saying something like this wouldn't have its uses but its gonna be a long time before such a thing
is practical and cheap enough to issue. The better course is to make armor and weapons lighter and more
effective in conjunction with a lightweight oxygen boost system to extended endurance and shorten recovery
time and that's doable today.

[Ombrageux]

Awesome. A little chainsaw-like engine might do the trick, no? If this sort of thing could allow a soldier to be more or less completely bullet-proof it could really be quite good for wars in low-tech countries.

[Igor Antunov]

I find this fascinating:

[youtube]5LduYhx5lDY[/youtube]

A little chainsaw-like engine might do the trick, no?

So the soldier can advertise his presence from km's away? And RPG's aren't exactly expensive in low tech conflicts, this suit wouldn't be able to protect the soldier from such weapons, the concussion alone would mangle the body inside the suit.

Skip exosuits and focus on highly autonomous/remotely operated land based battle drones:



Give him some more armor, and you're good to go. A single operator could manage 10 of these units with autonomy software assistance.

These exosuits are basically mechs, I find mechs unrealistic. Why have a person inside?

The HAL suit has already gone commercial for nursing/rehabilitation:

[youtube]fy7ipDAyXtI[/youtube]

I think this is where they're most useful currently.

[U184]

Xbow, think your pic but it weighs 80lbs and is fully articulated and allows the pilot powered movement and the ability to carry 300lbs as if it was not there, plus other perks. They cost about 300k each.

[Wolfman]

^ And an RPG costs $50 and weighs a few pounds. Can that suit stop an RPG round? Can it stop the concusion from an RPG round? Will that suit be available in the next century? The next half century? The next 30 years? I doubt all of those. A better investment would be in Carbon Nano-Tube cloth that could be used to make a uniform/body armor cross. It is significantly closer to development, probably wouldn't cost nearly as much, and even if that Exoskeleton were developed, it would take longer to get it onto the battlefield, and in the mean time a CNT bullet proof uniform would be out saving lives. And it could still be used as a non-combat uniform (I hate to bring up the example, but remember the Fort Hood incident? Nine lives saved).

And could you imagine the looks on the faces of the first insurgent to take a couple shots at a soldier on a foot patrol in Afghanistan? That insurgent would be thinking that the guy's an easy target (he's not even wearing body armor!). Takes a shot at the guys chest, and the bullet bounces off. Hu ho, hilarious.

[U184]

Can that suit stop an RPG round?

No personal body armor can, nor does it need to do so, so that is a non-issue.

Will that suit be available in the next century?

Portions of that suit are all ready being used in the field. The next generation of that suit is in the 3rd phase production via DARPA and the DOD and if things go on track, it will be issued to front tier squads within the decade.

it could still be used as a non-combat uniform

Said suits can be used from construction to search and rescue and many, many other applications.

[Xbow]

it weighs 80lbs and is fully articulated and allows the pilot powered movement and the ability to carry 300lbs as if it was not there, plus other perks. They cost about 300k each.

Kflint, that's just about the price tag and performance I would expect. What I don't know is how long a charge would last in a combat environment when the lads are doing a lot of moving around.

At 300K a copy a Marine fire team would cost 1.2 million to outfit, a squad 3.9million and a platoon of 48 (including a FAC , FO, 2RTO's, 2 robotics mechanics, 1 Corpsman) 14.4 million. And whatever is necessary in the way of mechanical support. Call it 20 million to outfit that platoon w/o weapons. so toss another 5 million or so for the large array of special weapons and ammo these guys could carry with that combined load carrying capacity of 14,400 pounds (300lbs/man).

Obviously there is some capability there along with some liabilities. In any case this technology should be pursued as it has been since the 1960's because despite the cost and limitations it offers some interesting capabilities. This is especially true if they select the individuals to man these heavy infantry units from a group that is at the top level of physical fitness and endurance. Id say that only those with 270 PFT scores (USMC) that can demonstrate a much higher than average brute strength index should be considered. Perhaps one company per infantry battalion equipped this way would be sufficient since they could be used as attachments to the light infantry companies that have a need for their capabilities on specific missions. (TASK organization).

All in all we are going to see some interesting developments along these lines in the next decade or two. I think the next leap in technology will come from the use of electroactive polymers as artificial muscles to power the suits as opposed to hydraulics and servo motors. Of course the men in these suits would still be as vulnerable as any when counter measures are developed. I think that you would see any enemy develop increased ability to deliver FAE and AP Cluster munitions (DP-ICM) at the lowest level and land mines would become more powerful and have greater armor piercing capability. You might even see an enemy deploy man portable EMP weapons to kill the suits.

Well, it looks like the Gun vs Armor race is still on.

[Wolfman]

No personal body armor can, nor does it need to do so, so that is a non-issue.

Does it make sense to rely on something that costs $300,000 per user and can be destroyed by something that costs $50?

Portions of that suit are all ready being used in the field. The next generation of that suit is in the 3rd phase production via DARPA and the DOD and if things go on track, it will be issued to front tier squads within the decade.

I really doubt this. Infact, unless someone from the DOD who isn't associated with DARPA actually says "this is going to be out there in the next decade" I'm going to say that's not happening.

Said suits can be used from construction to search and rescue and many, many other applications.

Where they'll have a more constant source of fuel and wont have to worry about people shooting RPG rounds at them.

[Xbow]

(CSSG folks) Where they'll have a more constant source of fuel and wont have to worry about people shooting RPG rounds at them.

I could see some use for these things while moving from the AA to the AP as a way of hauling more gear and water and thus staving off exhaustion and then dumping them before kick off. You wouldn't even need an RPG to defeat a fully armored suit. It would be as easy as pie to KO guys in heavy suits with shit that's already in the system. Such as 40mm HEDP M433 round from M203s, .50 BMG SLAP rounds fired from a Barrett, and 7.62 X 51 NATO SLAP rounds fired from an M14s, G3s, FNs or whatever. There is just too much shit out there that would turn the guy inside the suit into chunks. And If Wolfman's RPG-7 were used there wouldn't be much recognizable shit laying around to load into a body bag.

Does it make sense to rely on something that costs $300,000 per user and can be destroyed by something that costs $50?

Nope! No sense at all......except to the defense contractor maybe.

I can't imagine a guy in a power suit being as fast and agile as a well: trained, conditioned, rested and motivated grunt. Remember the entry on body armor from, SLA Marshals, "A Soldiers Load And the Mobility of a Nation" on our required reading list? Words to the effect, "body armor reduces the effects of a hit but its weight and how cumbersome it is make getting hit more likely."

Sure, a guy in a 300k power suit can do more work and lift heavier shit than a guy without one but I think investing in more Lance Corporals and PFCs is the way to go. The non rated Marine, the finest implement of war known to man. They go anywhere, do anything and don't require exotic fuel or robotics technicians to keep them running.

Anyway, I can think of plenty of better things to spend that 300k on...like maybe an extra 300k cash gratuity (in Silver or Gold) for a Vet that's lost a limb or otherwise been seriously wounded in combat perhaps?

We won't even need to actually test the armor. We just make the threat, and they shit their pants.

You don't really believe that horse shit do you zero?

[Wolfman]

Nope! No sense at all......except to the defense contractor maybe.

If contractors want to start playing with those things in a combat zone, that's their prerogative. Granted my opinion of defense contractors is incredibly low, so, that might be fueling my indifference to it.

[U184]

Granted my opinion of defense contractors is incredibly low, so, that might be fueling my indifference to it.

Hey now, we are not all that bad.

I did work on the Human Performance Augmentation Project as a subcontractor.

I introduced both new armor aspects and structural design to the 3rd generation system.

I really doubt this. Infact, unless someone from the DOD who isn't associated with DARPA actually says "this is going to be out there in the next decade" I'm going to say that's not happening.

As I said, it is already in the field.

Does it make sense to rely on something that costs $300,000 per user and can be destroyed by something that costs $50?

That same 50 bucks will kill a soldier with or without the suit, but yes the suit offers better blast protection than current armor.

Anyway, I can think of plenty of better things to spend that 300k on...like maybe an extra 300k cash gratuity (in Silver or Gold) for a Vet that's lost a limb or otherwise been seriously wounded in combat perhaps?

Perhaps and perhaps such equipment will reduce the number of such casualties.

[youtube]y1CeBOWm67A[/youtube]

This one gives a better demo of its capabilities.
[youtube]hWumbs9MQdM[/youtube]

The above is the 1st generation, this generation was able to go for a little more than 12 miles/20km at full load, the alpha project did not protect the joints and had some other problems. Fully loaded, a HULC user can actually move at walking or even running speeds of 0-7 mph without any stress from the load being transferred.


The 3rd generation is already in the works. Below is more in line to what one aspect of the suit will be like.



This is the framework for the 3rd generation.

Current focus is on a holistic approach to identify capabilities that enable the Small unit to efficiently shoot or move across varying
terrain; will devise measures to assess the impact of load on marksmanship performance; will conduct field validation of mobility
aids to exploit Soldier's use and application of spatial information; will develop Soldier/Small Unit applications to be incorporated
into mission planning tools for load management, Soldier cross-loading and resupply analysis.

Small Combat Unit C4 Interfaces
Description: This effort matures and demonstrates a modular, open architecture personal area networks with graphical user
interface for Soldier-borne technologies. Effort is coordinated with PE 0602786A/H98 (Warfighter Technology), PE 0603710A/K70
(Night Vision Advanced Technology) and PE 0602624A/Project H18 (Weapons and Munitions Technology), PE 0603005/Project
497 (Combat Vehicle and Automotive Advanced Technology), and PE 0603004/Project 232 (Weapons and Munitions Advanced
Technology).

These suits can be used for combat and will be. However gear transfer, set up/break down time will all be reduced and long haul double time will have a new meaning. Here is the US ARMY NSRDEC COMMANDERS’ SMARTBOOK EQUIPMENT CATALOG, think of how many men and how long set up time takes for the average mobile encampment...now think about the fact that 5 men could do the same job in 1/4 the time.

The 3rd generation is looking at 500lbs to 700lbs load capacity, 60 miles/100km, walking or even running speeds of 0-25 mph without any stress from the load being transferred. Different suits will have different tactical uses. I will see what has been released for public view and post it as able.

Here is what the Marines are thinking.

Exoskeleton Enhancements for Marines:
Tactical-level Technology for an Operational Consequence
SUBMITTED IN PARTIAL FULFILLMENT OF THE REQUIREMENTS FOR THE DEGREE OF MASTERS OF OPERATIONAL SCIENCE
AUTHOR:
Major C. Travis Reese, United States Marine Corps
School of Advanced Warfighting


Another fantastic use...

[Wolfman]

Hey now, we are not all that bad

Do you work for a company like Blackwater? No? Then I don't care.

As I said, it is already in the field.

That looks like a badly done photoshop.

That same 50 bucks will kill a soldier with or without the suit, but yes the suit offers better blast protection than current armor.

This suit has a terrible cost compared to its benefit.

[U184]

At least look over the information and try to keep an open mind. Then weigh in.

[Wolfman]

That's like me asking you to keep an open mind and look over the evidence that invisible gnomes are the reason door hinges work. You're talking about having the DoD invest the GDP of numerous countries* into a suit that will basically offer protection against nothing other than small arms. That just doesn't make any sense.

* Assuming on infantry would get these. If it was everyone, you're talking about spending the GDP of the Netherlands.

[U184]

These are not for general use. Specific applications only. Medium weapons fire, medium blast protection.

It would make no sense, at the current technology level, to implement a service wide issue, so do not worry about that.



Xe Services is not my idea of a defense contractor...and no I do not work for another company, I am an independent contractor.

[Wolfman]

Xe Services is not my idea of a defense contractor...and no I do not work for another company, I am an independent contractor.

When I say 'defense contractor' I'm talking about guys like them.

These are not for general use. Specific applications only. Medium weapons fire, medium blast protection.

And when would a special task force be in the position to need defense against nothing higher than medium weapons fire or medium blasts? Because I cannot think of time.