[Demosthenes]

I found the open site to be better than I expected, but again, I'm still only judging at 50 yards. Do you have a model name or style in mind for this proposed site?

[ingliz]

Do you have a model name

Kobra EKP-1S-03M open collimator "red dot"

[War Angel]

The AK has got one thing going for it - durability and reliability. This can either be the single most important characteristic of a weapon, or a secondary one.

If I had to choose between an M16-A1 and an AK-47, I'd choose the Russkie weapon, as the American type is shite when it comes to withstanding the elements, or even gunpowder blockage. So much so, in-fact, that it over-rules any advantage over the AK.

But, given the option of choosing between the M4 and the AK-47, I would choose the M4, without a doubt. It is far more reliable than older M16 variants, while maintaining all the previous M16 advantages over the AK.

[Zerogouki]

No love for the best of both worlds?

[War Angel]

No love for the best of both worlds?

That's an M16 variant, possibly chambered for something else, other than the 5.56mm NATO round.

Another "best of both worlds" is the Galil, which is essentially a messed-up AK chambered (usually) for the 5.56mm NATO round.

Galil SAR:


It, too, is unpleasant to fire and operate, although it is very rugged.

[Xbow]

Accuracy: Hands down AK! OMG! With just the open sight this weapon is deadly! No wonder insurgents everywhere swear by them! I am seriously impressed. The M-16 jumps quite a bit when fired and I have a little trouble stabilizing it. The AK does so to a lesser degree and just hits what I'm aiming at. I was very, very surprised. I really expected the two to be more competitive.

That may have been your experience on that firing occasion but I believe you are incorrect in your assessment D. But what works best is what works best fot you. But, I'll tell you what, take a standard 7.62 X 39 AK to any USMC rifle range and qualify with it...good luck.

On Table 1, You will do fine at 200 yards, you'll really start wondering at 300 yards and at 500 yards you'll start hating your AK (especially if you have a case of Heineken and a bottle of Glenfiddich riding on the results)
On Table 2, you will do fine with an AK.

Table 1 Course is a 250 point (50 shot) course that stresses long range marksmanship.[/b]
200 yards:
Slow fire 5 shots each Sitting, kneeling and offhand. 'Able target 12" bull'
Rapid fire, move from standing to sitting position, 10 shots in 50 seconds with a magazine change. 'Dog target' from the shoulders up man silhouette 19in high 26 in wide.
300 yards:
slow fire, 5 shots sitting position 'Able target 12" bull'
Rapid fire, move from standing to prone position, 10 shots in 50 seconds with a magazine change. 'Dog target'
500 yards:
Slow fire, 10 shots, prone position at 'B Mod target' from the groin up man silhouette 40in high 20inches wide.


.............Able......................Dog.......................Baker (Mod).................Echo

Table-2 is a 100 point (50 shot) course that stresses short range, multiple targets, moving from position to position rapidly
and shot placement on the Echo target.
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

I will only discuss standard military issue weapons with iron sights not civ versions or upgrades of either weapon with optical sights and a bunch of whistles and bells.

Inherent accuracy
Given ammunition of equal quality a good AK's accuracy is about 2.5 to 4 MOA while an M16A2's accuracy is 1.5 to 2 MOA

From a machine rest the AK/AKM will print groups of:
2.5" to 4" at....100 yards
5" to 8" at.......200 yards
7.5" to 12" at...300 yards
12.5" to 20" at..500 yards

From a machine rest the M16A2 will print groups of:
1.5" to 3" at.....100 yards
3" to 4" at........200 yards
4.5" to 6" at.....300 yards
7.5" to 10" at....500 yards

For the shooter:

An AK has sights that are:
Not adjustable by the shooter for windage, (that's bad in high crosswinds)
The AK's rear sights provide fixed elevation adjustments from 100m to 800m (to fine tune the elevation system you will need a special tool)
the sight radius is short at ~15 inches.(very bad for accuracy)

The M16A2's are fully adjustable by the shooter for elevation and windage in 1/2 min increments.(very good for long range shooting)
The sight radius is 19.75 (very good for accuracy)

Note: Neither weapon delivers significant recoil to the shooter, if its flopping around its YOU and your position that is the problem.
Effective Range vs point targets:
AK47/AKM =400 meters
M16A2 = 550 meters

Note: In the Reliability contest the AK/AKM wins because its loose tolerances and gas piston system make it less sensitive to dirt filth abuse and moisture.
The direct flow of gas into the receiver of the M-16 series makes it a dirt magnet.
However to me both rifles are just adequate compromises based on the German notion of the intermediate power cartridge and the assault rifle
they brought into existence with the in StG-44 in and 7.92×33mm Kurz ammo. (1943)

Note: And you can buy a semi automatic version of the StG-44 if you want to spend $2700.00 bucks for one

But If I have to choose which weapon to go into battle with I'll take the AK47 over the M16A2 for only one reason, the 123 grain mild steel core projectile of the standard Chinese 7.62 x 39 cartridge. Although the 62 grain M855 FMJ slug looks better than the AK round on paper the 123 grain AK round holds together better and retains more mass on its way through flesh, bone and body armor. I don't know about the new M855A1 5.56 x 45 ammo I hear its pretty sweet (steel penetrating cone and solid copper core) But I've never fired the shit. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:5.56_ ... _Round.jpg

[/b] Since I prefer full power cartridges, I like the M-14, the FN-FAL, Heckler & Koch G3 or the SIG 510-4(in 7.62 X 51 NATO) Note:Given high quality ammunition of a consistent lot number these weapons all deliver 1 to 1.5 MOA accuracy and almost twice the muzzle energy of either the AK47 or M16. The The 7.62 NATO round is packing 1626ft pounds at 300 yards and its projectiles superior ballistic coefficient of .451 allows it to retain 500ft pounds of energy at 1000yards. At 1000 yards the AK and the M16 projectiles are packing 228 ft pounds & 155 ft pounds respectively.

To the M14 goes long range accuracy (excellent fully adjustable sights 1/2 min for deflection and elevation)
To the FN-FAL goes overall usability and handling and wins the beauty contest hands down.
To the G3 and the SIG 510-4 goes reliability and ease of maintinance.

[MB.]

But If I have to choose which weapon to go into battle with I'll take the AK47 over the M16A2 for only one reason, the 123 grain mild steel core projectile of the standard Chinese 7.62 x 39 cartridge. Although the 62 grain M855 FMJ slug looks better than the AK round on paper the 123 grain AK round holds together better and retains more mass on its way through flesh, bone and body armor. I don't know about the new M855A1 5.56 x 45 ammo I hear its pretty sweet (steel penetrating cone and solid copper core) But I've never fired the shit. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:5.56_ ... _Round.jpg

Isn't all this carnage academic if you cannot hit the target at ranges over 300 yards as you imply above? Does the 123 grain 7.62x39 cartridge change the ballistic accuracy at range?

[Xbow]

Isn't all this carnage academic if you cannot hit the target at ranges over 300 yards as you imply above?

Actually, I implied that long range marksmanship is more difficult with an AK47/AKM and stated the fact that the M-16 is the more accurate weapon. I provided the numbers in my first post but once again The AK can print groups of 7.5" to 12" at 300 yards and that dispersion zone expands to 12.5" to 20" at 500 yards. Note that the dispersion area is still smaller than a human form (B mod target) . The point is that with its larger dispersion area there is less room for human error with an AK47/AKM at any range when compared to an M16A1 with its smaller dispersion zone.

I will use the worst case dispersion areas for the AK (20") and the M16 (10") at 500 yards

If a shooter makes a 2 MOA☼ error from center mass in deflection at 500 yards with an AK his 20" dispersion zone is moved ten inches to the right or left. That means as many as 50% of his rounds will miss to the right or left of a target that is 20" wide (B mod target). With the same 2 MOA shooter error an M16A1's 10" dispersion zone will be moved ten inches to the right or left but the dispersion zone is still completely on the target and thus will have a higher hit probability.

And besides that MB I know that you are completely aware of the fact that most infantry combat takes place at ranges less than 300 yards. That is why after all the intermediate cartridge was developed by the Krauts in WW2 and copied by everyone else. Intermediate cartridges offer less recoil, acceptable lethality within the weapons performance envelope and lighter ammunition that you can carry more of.

I said most INF combat takes place at ranges <= 300yards not all. The new M855A1 ammunition was developed to give increased range and punch to the M16A1 but more specifically to the short barreled M4A1 Carbine and reflects the need for long range accuracy and penetration with that weapon in open country (Afghanistan for instance).

Does the 123 grain 7.62x39 cartridge change the ballistic accuracy at range?

No. The accuracy of any weapon + ammo combination is completely fixed in stone on the mechanical level in accordance with the weapons degree of harmonic imbalance (whip or jump) and the stability of the projectile in flight.

But as I said the M855A1 ammunition for the M16A1/M4A1 levels the playing field with the performance of the AK's M43 ammunition in terms of energy delivered...on paper at least. If that has been proven in the field then I would take an M-16/M4. But foot pounds delivered isn't the only standard of lethality, But that's in the realm of terminal ballistics. (get with Kflint on that one)

Note: the Bullet Path column for another reason why the M16/m4 is a bit better than the AK at long range shooting.
Note: Many Zero AK's at 100 (meters) as opposed to the 200 I listed, that gives a it a battle sight range of ≈ 300m

Have I answered your question?

Ah, back to the RobMac avatar I see.

☼ 1 MOA = 1" per hundred yards

[Zerogouki]

That's an M16 variant, possibly chambered for something else, other than the 5.56mm NATO round.

It's chambered for the 6.8 Remington SPC and doesn't suffer the gas impingement system. Thus, it corrects the AR-15 platform's two most crippling weaknesses, lack of stopping power and lack of reliability, without sacrificing its advantages.

[Demosthenes]

XBow- You make an interesting case, but I'll never be able to afford the ammo to perform that test accurately. Still, I found it all interesting enough. I kind of already understood that the FN FAL was nearly the greatest assault rifle ever made to this point already, but alas... buying one as a civilian in the middle of Missouri isn't easy or cheap.

The other thing is, on the occaision that I would need something like this to actually do anything more than shoot paper at the range I'd probably look very closely at the FN FAL and do what it took to get it. However, at this time, as I can really only envision shooting no more than 200m, it seems like over kill to pay $1500 + for something fancier.

I recently looked very closely into buying a FN-PS90. It's not got the flash of the rest, and certainly has a tiny round...but damn, it's bad ass in all ways known to man. It's certainly not a distance weapon, of course though. Still, at $2k it was just a tad more than I was comfortable with and settled on a couple cheaper options instead.

Zero- Until you actually fire something live and speak with real world experience, please stop posting in this thread. I asked you once already to cut it out.

[Xbow]

I put this entry in Quotes to save space.

Demosthenes, there are many ways to skin a cat or in this case get greater accuracy from a reasonably priced AK-47/AKM than it was ever designed to deliver. Mine consistently delivers 1.5 MOA accuracy after I did a few things to the weapon. If you want to save some cash (I always do) here is how to do it on the cheap but get far greater performance from that AK. My MAK-90 is my primary 'coyote duster' and I've taken the little cat eating pricks out to over 400 yards with it.

And no Gun post would be correct with out mentioning the Guru of Varmint Hunting on my end of the country...The Legendary Varmint Al

Note: out of the Box my MAK-90 was limited to about 3-4 MOA accuracy (at best) with the standard steel cased non re-loadable Berdan primed ammunition that is so cheap and plentiful.

Now the questions become:
1)What causes an AK to have marginal accuracy?
2)How do I make my Kalashnikov more accurate?

1)The AK's major sources of inaccuracy

A) Ammunition. The single most important factor. AK ammunition is notoriously variable when you switch from lot number to lot number and from one manufacturer to another.

B1) The weapons crown is often poorly executed (not concentric), this causes an asymmetrical gas jet or plume once the bullet exits the barrel. The bullet rides this gas jet and if it isn't perfectly symmetrical and concentric it will impart a minute wobble to the projectile and negatively effects its accuracy in flight.
B2 If Your AK has a spade type muzzle brake this will negatively effect accuracy for the same reason as A1.

C)The Iron sights have a very short sight radius.(unimportant when shooting at close range)

D) Loose tolerance in the Bolt Receiver junction. A minute amount of movement when a round is fired imparts a tiny bit of high frequency vibration that negatively affects accuracy (harmonic imbalance).

E) The gas piston system is large and heavy and that means a lot of vibration with that much mass moving to the rear when the action cycles.

F) The degree of precision to which the chamber was cut if the chamber is too 'generous' the cartridge casing is forced to expand too much upon firing. This also causes vibration that will negatively effect accuracy.

G) The trigger is pure mush and the lock time is slow (lock time = sear release to ignition time)

H) When the bolt reaches its maximum travel backwards it has a rather profound metal to metal 'slap'. While this does not directly effect accuracy it will wear out the gun quickly and hammer an inexpensive optical sight into uselessness even faster.

I) The rear stock is short, small and doesn't allow a perfect 'spot-weld' so that you can eliminate a massive source of error called 'Parallax'☼

2)Eliminating some of the AK's sources of inaccuracy

I will set the budget for these upgrades at $150.00 - $200.00

A) Ammunition quality is the single most significant factor that enhances or hurts a guns inherent accuracy. The very best way to improve this is to hand load SOME of your ammunition. When you have a need for long range accuracy use your hand loads. Otherwise use the cheapest shit you can find in bulk.
Now the good part is that a big investment for reloading gear is not necessary if you only want to load for a few calibers. I now consider my Scoped AK (MAK-90) perfectly acceptable out to 600 yards where it will throw down groups of about 10-12 inches consistently provided that I do my job. Beyond that range the bullets drop down into the subsonic range (SS at 558 yards), lose stability and the groups expand rapidly and in a random pattern. But at that 600 yards the slug is packing 395 foot pounds of energy. (30% better than a 158 grain .38 special at point blank range)

Tools:
Lee Reloader Single Stage Press--------------------------------------------------~$30.00
Lee Collet 2-Die Neck Sizer Set 7.62x39mm Russian----------------------------~$27.00
That's it if you want to use the powder scoop that comes with the Lee neck sizer dies. If Not add an inexpensive powder scale (more precision).
Lee Safety Magnetic Powder Scale 100 Grain Capacity-------------------------~$24.00
So for about $60.00 to $85.00 you have all the tools required to crank out superior match grade ammunition if proper care and enough anal-retention is used in the reloading process.

Components: Note: These do not count for the 150.00 to 200.00 upgrade I mentioned because they are consumables.

CCI Small Rifle Primers Box of 400------------------------------------------------~$35.00
Winchester 7.62 X 39 Brass,-------------------------------------------------------~$24.00 per 50 never fired cases.
Alliant Reloader 7 Rifle Powder(good for about 270 rounds)--------------------~$22.00/pound.
Note: Never buy this shit through the mail or internet because of the $25.00 per order Hazardous material shipping fee. Buy this across the counter
Horneday 123 grain .310 Vmax bullets Box of 100--------------------------------~$30.00 (This is the only bullet I use for my AK but I'm thinking of doing a test run with some Speer .308 dia. 125 gr. TNT HP. the slugs are .002 smaller than the Vmaxs but I am told this is an insignificant detail and .308's will stabilize in a .310 barrel with a very slight loss of velocity. The superior ballistic coefficient of the TNT (.341 as opposed to the VMAXs .275 is very significant.)


Now that ammunition has been taken care of lets move on to improving the rifle itself:

•To remedy (B1+B2) have a gunsmith take a gander at the crown the chances are it will be OK and need nothing. If he says he needs to re-cut the crown I wouldn't pay more than a crisp twenty dollar bill. BUT If he says its fucked make him show you! If it is fucked up enough to effect accuracy you can see it with the naked eye.

•To remedy (C) short sight radius don't worry about it because if you take my advise you wont be using the Iron all that much. Optional Upgrade: (night shooting with tritium sights is fun) If you want to keep the cost down I suggest that you score a SIDE MOUNT scope basewith a weaver pictiny rail (do not buy a cover with a weaver rail on it because it will never hold a zero EVER!) some one inch rings and this inexpensive scope for $24.00 the magnificent (for the money) Leapers UTG Golden Image Compact Rifle Scope 4x 32mm Mil-Dot Reticle Scope
•To Remedy (D) Loose tolerance of receiver to bolt interface. Not much to be done there without spending a lot of $$$$ but consider applying some Tetra in this area and let it cook on and don't clean it out unless your using god forbid shit ammo with corrosive primers. A little build up of hardened plaque will tighten that interface a bit. I had a gunsmith true mine up and I did notice a little surge in accuracy but it cost a lot.
•To remedy (E) heavy gas piston just make sure it is Clean Clean Clean and it wouldn't hurt to polish the inside of the gas tube a bit with Jewelers rouge (if it looks rough) If not Clean Clean Clean. And make sure the reciever rails are greased up a bit with Tetra Gun Grease to make the critter operate as smooth as butter.
•To remedy (F) Loose chamber tolerance. You've already fixed this if you use those Lee neck sizing dies. This is because every round you fire becomes the perfect size for the chamber of YOUR gun. Remember you're only re-sizing the necks. Perfect!
•To Remedy (G) The creepy and mushy AK trigger. There's not but one thing to do replace it with a better one from RED STAR ARMS for about $70.00 skins. This requires a little mechanical aptitude to install but if you buy it from a local gun dealer especially a small rural shop owned by a good old boy with some gun plumbing skills, he can install it for you CHEAP and correctly. I wish they had this when I went to work on my MAK-90.
•To Remedy (H) Bolt slap (the AK killer) buy this indispensable magnificent wonderful Wilson Combat Shok-Buff Recoil Buffer for $15.00
•To Remedy short AK rear stock get a cool adjustable skeleton AK stock with a cheek piece or buy something like this TAPCO Stock Extention for ten bucks or just shim it out yourself. Then buy a strap on cheek pad to keep your head in the same place.

the changes in the rifle amount to:
~5.00 for Tetra grease
70.00 for a great trigger
15.00 for a bolt buffer
25.00 for that compact scope
30.00 for a side mount scope base
10.00 for a simple stock extension
25.00 for a cheek pad
----------------------------------
$180.00 plus tribute to the state.

And bubba you will then have a vastly improved weapon (better than new) that will make a lot of egotistical punks with tricked out M-4's (1200 bucks and up) drink a nice tall glass of shut the fuck up.

One Note about cleaning. NEVER stick that steel cleaning rod that the weapon came with down the throat of your rifle from the muzzle end EVER! Get an aluminium or brass rod and run patches and brushes through from the breech end. Steel rods shoved through the muzzle end have killed more crowns and accuracy than any other form of abuse.

☼ Parallax = the apparent movement of an object when viewed from two different points.