Could Britain have avoided war by siding with the Axis? - Page 5 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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The Second World War (1939-1945).
Forum rules: No one line posts please.
#13970187
pugsville wrote:While the Soviet Union had under Stalin and appalling record on human rights and was mass-murdering on truly vast scale (though if the the Regime ever got to rule Russia they would have been much much worse than even Stalin) Stalin and the Soviets were mostly focused internally.

Stalin was a far, far more unpleasant person than Trotsky. And I'm sure that Trotsky although a committed terrorist like Lenin would have killed far less people internally than Stalin. The Holdomor would not have happened under Trotsky. However the Soviet Union under Trotsky would have been far more of a threat externally. Under Trotsky Poland, Czechoslovakia etc would have become Soviet republics.
#13970225
Rich wrote:Stalin was a far, far more unpleasant person than Trotsky. And I'm sure that Trotsky although a committed terrorist like Lenin would have killed far less people internally than Stalin. The Holdomor would not have happened under Trotsky. However the Soviet Union under Trotsky would have been far more of a threat externally. Under Trotsky Poland, Czechoslovakia etc would have become Soviet republics.

Trotsky was a despicable man who had few morals or principles, I doubt his rule would have been little different from Stalin's and furthermore he would have brought the USSR crashing down. The Soviet Union under Trotsky would have been completely isolated internationally and would have been identified as much more of a major threat to world peace than under Stalin, so Hitler would have attracted many more countries to the anti-comintern pact, especially France (the Soviets generally believed France would be the first western domino to fall, and Trotsky would have been providing arms to the French communists as well as simply financial support as part of his "become the nastiest rogue state in the world that everyone will want to destroy" policy).
#13977438
I have marshaled several historical facts to clearly establish what Adolf Hitler's real foreign policy aims were. If you want to go beyond that and on some vague appeal to "Nazi" love of war, claim that Germany would have turned on the West after defeating the Soviet Union, then do that, but just don't assume you have some basis for doing that other than propaganda peddled by the History Channel or the countless Allied histories written about Germany. There is no compelling evidence to indicate that Hitler would have betrayed an Anglo-German alliance had one been established.

Furthermore, given the absolutely indispensable role of Adolf Hitler to National-Socialism and the centrality of his views for the NSDAP, any precedent that he would set for future National-Socialist successors would have been decisive and binding. Even Hitler's last will and testament states very clearly that he never truly desired war with England, France or America.

It is ironic, especially given the unfortunate realities of our hindsight, to claim that the British Empire would have to be motivated by the future aims of leaders of nations that were current allies. It was apparent to Churchill and the rest of the British government what the global aims of the Soviet Union were, and that any vacuum opened up for Soviet power would inevitably result in interests opposed to those of the European colonial powers, but that did not affect British policy. As they very clearly conveyed in their overt propaganda in the 1920s and the 1930s, the Soviets spent the decades after the war supporting anti-colonialist and anti-European movements in the Third World. The fact is that the only sane position would have been to base an alliance on concrete manifestations of respect for the British Empire, which only emanated from Adolf Hitler, who among all the statesmen at the time the war was starting was the only one that transparently wanted to see the British Empire endure.

As for these remarks on National-Socialist "expansionism", its parameters were clearly set out in Hitler's writings, speeches, and the duration of his leadership of the party.

Many court historians like to appeal to German actions in Western Europe, in the Low Countries and France, as a basis for German "aggression", but those were epiphenomenal to the war imposed on Germany by Britain and France. The fact is that if Britain had remained neutral or, preferably, engaged Germany on friendly terms, Germany never would have invaded France or the Low Countries. Those were incidental to a war that Britain started and that Hitler, multiple times, attempted to end. Lastly, there was nothing unique to German "expansionism" that did not already have some precedent established in British and broadly European colonial history. The relevant question is not whether Germany sought living space and further resources; of course it did. The relevant question is where and from whom. I have answered that question, and on the basis of my answer I hold my position that this was not only unopposed to authentic British imperial interests, but from a broadly racist perspective, was aligned with them. The British, who were not only Aryan but ethnolinguistically Germanic, were intrinsically aligned with basic German foreign policy, coupled with the fact that British power was naval and colonial, and German power was and would remain rooted in soil, and Eurasian in scope, as Hitler explicitly conveyed and as was conveyed to the British government by Ribbentrop in 1937.
#14005635
Unavoidable? That's a laugh, whole thing happened because the Poles refused to submit to Germany's (quite legitimate IMHO) claims to Danzig and the corridor to East Prussia.



Even if that were true, German'y invasion of Czechoslovakia beyond the territory of the Sudetenland was certainly not legitimate; the remilitarisation of the Rhineland, and the building up of the Armed Forces, were in contravention of the ToV and threatened the French border.

Britain honoured its treaty with Poland, but it had also become clear that Hitler would not cease in pressing his territorial claims and desire for 'lebensraum.'

Britain could have avoided taken part in the war in 1939, but the war itself was inevitable since Hitler was always going to violate the Nazi-Soviet Pact and invade Russia.
#14005668
AuContraireVoltaire wrote:Even if that were true, German'y invasion of Czechoslovakia beyond the territory of the Sudetenland was certainly not legitimate; the remilitarisation of the Rhineland, and the building up of the Armed Forces, were in contravention of the ToV and threatened the French border.

Yes, those dastardly Germans and their evil remilitarization spit in the face of the Holy Versailles Scripture. How could they???
#14005855
Organon wrote:
Even Hitler's last will and testament states very clearly that he never truly desired war with England, France or America.



What also remains clear (to those who don't buy into the 24-hour History Channel programming) is that the German occupation of Sudatenland and West Prussia, among others, was an attempt to unify German ethnic groups who were being persecuted. It was not fun to be a German in Czechoslovakia after World War I. For one, ethnic Germans were taxed at a much higher rate. Poland actually had campaigns of violence and thuggery directed at the nearly 2 million ethnic Germans living there, which was so bad that by 1921 three out of four Germans living in the West Prussia – Posen area had already fled their homes.


Keep it up, Orangon, you are driving the Red Left/pinko element on this forum up the wall... :lol:
#14005943
Emerald Ocean wrote: It was not fun to be a German in Czechoslovakia after World War I. For one, ethnic Germans were taxed at a much higher rate.

Your link to Wikipedia makes no reference to taxation, could you provide another link?

Emerald Ocean wrote:Poland actually had campaigns of violence and thuggery directed at the nearly 2 million ethnic Germans living there, which was so bad that by 1921 three out of four Germans living in the West Prussia – Posen area had already fled their homes.

Yeah, problem with that logic is it wasn't 1921 any more. By the 1930s these things had become rare, so it's pretty hard to justify the invasion and annexation of Poland on that basis. It seems Nazi Germany knew this, hence the Gleiwitz incident. In other words, Nazi Germany didn't actually have a good case for war, so they made one up.

There is also still a matter of the Hossbach Memorandum from 1937, which outlines Britain and France as possible opponents and states the rationale for Germany going to war as economic, not because of persecuted minorities.
#14006319
Smilin' Dave wrote:
Your link to Wikipedia makes no reference to taxation, could you provide another link?


"Early policies of the Czechoslovak government, intended to correct social injustice and effect a moderate redistribution of wealth, had fallen more heavily on the German population than on other citizens. In 1919 the government confiscated one-fifth of each individual's holdings in paper currency."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germans_in ... (1918-1938

Smilin' Dave wrote:
Yeah, problem with that logic is it wasn't 1921 any more. By the 1930s these things had become rare, so it's pretty hard to justify the invasion and annexation of Poland on that basis. It seems Nazi Germany knew this, hence the Gleiwitz incident. In other words, Nazi Germany didn't actually have a good case for war, so they made one up.


So what? That is a weak argument. You don't know what it was like living in the moment in the 1930s. Do you think the 2+ million Germans living under duress in Poland would have opposed the German invasion? Hell no, they welcomed it - and I'm sure they felt their Polish tormentors got what they deserved, and rightly so.

The US, on the other hand, has started wars and invaded numerous countries since WWII without a single shred of rational evidence for doing so. We never had 2+ million Americans living in Vietnam or Korea, but we killed millions upon millions of Vietnamese and Koreans for no reason whatsoever. You can also add to this number a half million Iraqis and maybe a quarter million Afghans.
#14006703
In 1919 the government confiscated one-fifth of each individual's holdings in paper currency."

Fantastic. Now if only the Wehrmacht of 1939 had a time machine they could put a stop to that...

Emerald Ocean wrote:You don't know what it was like living in the moment in the 1930s.

Oddly for your argument the leaders of Nazi Germany make no private reference to the supposed oppression of Germans in the east. In fact they were quite clear that what they were fighting the war for. And even officially the initial claim was for Danzig and a 'corridor' only. Nazi Germany was, officially at least, apparently happy to let all the other Germans in Poland stay under Polish rule.

Emerald Ocean wrote: Do you think the 2+ million Germans living under duress in Poland would have opposed the German invasion? Hell no, they welcomed it - and I'm sure they felt their Polish tormentors got what they deserved, and rightly so.

Many didn't just welcome it, some acted as a fifth column, and collaborated with the Einsatzgruppen:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selbstschutz
No references to their being necessary for self defence. Instead they seem to have been established to support the German army and commit acts of terrorism. Somehow in the narrative of German victims (real and imagined) in Poland, these militias never get mentioned.

Emerald Ocean wrote:The US, on the other hand, has started wars and invaded numerous countries since WWII without a single shred of rational evidence for doing so.

Maybe after using their time machine for 1919, the Wehrmacht could stop the US in all those other more modern wars :roll:

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