[Dempsey]

Holocaust denial is not new: this phenomenon can be traced back to 1974, with the output of the French pseudo-scholar Robert Faurisson. Yet thirty years on, Weber has posted an article on his site bemoaning the fact that sustained attempts by himself and other far-right sympathisers to “debunk” the Final Solution and to cast doubt on the historical record of Nazi Germany’s campaign of genocide against European Jews have got nowhere.

But in his essay, Weber calls for his movement to shift to a new mission, one more purely directed to fighting against “Jewish-Zionist power.”

http://www.forward.com/articles/14953/

Revisionist: It’s Time To Quit Shoah Fight


By Nathaniel Popper
Thu. Jan 15, 2009



Mark Weber

One of the primary leaders in the fight to question and delegitimize the Holocaust has proclaimed that fight to be a lost cause, sparking a furious debate among his cohorts.

Mark Weber, a telegenic Californian, has served for 15 years as director of the Institute for Historical Review, which was founded in the late 1970s as a center for people dedicated to doubting and criticizing mainstream histories of the Holocaust.

This month, however, Weber released an essay on the institute’s Web site, questioning whether this work has ever had any relevance. Weber argued that Holocaust revisionists are unlikely to have any success in convincing large numbers of people.

“It’s been almost 30 years, and Holocaust revisionism has gotten almost no support in academic circles or society at large,” Weber told the Forward. “It’s gotten some support in Iran, or places like that, but as far as I know, there is no history department supporting writing by these folks.”

The argument in Weber’s essay, “How Relevant Is Holocaust Revisionism?” might appear, at first glance, to be good news for the Jewish organizations that have fought against Holocaust revisionists. But in his essay, Weber calls for his movement to shift to a new mission, one more purely directed to fighting against “Jewish-Zionist power.”

Michael Shermer, a columnist for Scientific American who wrote a book about Holocaust revisionists, said that “for Weber, the Holocaust is just a minor skirmish. The real war to be won is about the Zionists.”

Though Weber, like most Holocaust revisionists, is not a fan of the Jewish community, his essay has not even gained him popularity among his fellow travelers. Bradley Smith, a former employee of Weber’s institute who is a prominent online publisher of Holocaust revisionist material, told the Forward that he is putting together a whole issue of his newsletter with arguments against Weber.

“It’s hard for me to think of Mark Weber as betraying me, because we’re friends. And yet, there are those who feel he has betrayed the institute and that he has betrayed the revisionist movement such as it is,” Smith said in a phone interview from Mexico.

Smith said that a number of prominent revisionists will be calling for Weber’s resignation from the institute.

The world of Holocaust revisionists — inhabited by people who are, by nature, disputatious and unconcerned with social norms — is not one in which divisions and fights have been foreign. Weber took over the Institute for Historical Review after a prolonged and expensive legal fight with its founder, Willis Carto, who had built the institute into what both antagonists and protagonists acknowledge was the premier forum for Holocaust doubters and deniers.

Since taking over, Weber has continued to publish writing on the Holocaust and on World War II. But he came to the institute after working with the white supremacist National Alliance party, and he has pushed to broaden the institute’s mandate. The Web site that Weber has built features such articles as “The Jewish Role in the Bolshevik Revolution” and “Israel at 60: A Grim Balance Sheet.”

In his new essay, published January 9, Weber does try to position himself as a more moderate voice in the debate about the Holocaust. He acknowledges Jewish suffering, and notes that Joseph Goebbel’s diaries speak about a concerted campaign to eliminate the Jews — a heretical view for many Holocaust doubters.

“Much of the predictable hostility toward my piece has come from people who are basically cultists — or fanatics on this issue,” Weber told the Forward. “They view it with an almost religious fervor.”

Already, this has appeared to cause some questioning on revisionist Web sites. One commenter, writing under the handle Carto’s Cutlass Supreme, responded to Weber’s use of Goebbel’s diary by asking: “What would people say about that here? Do we know the diary couldn’t have been tampered with?”

Weber’s discussion of Jewish suffering, though, is a lead-in to the historian’s broader point, which is that the Holocaust doubters have not been effective agents in the broader battle against Jewish power.

Michael Santomauro, who runs an e-mail list dedicated to questioning Jews and the Holocaust, said that Weber’s shift is a strategic mistake.

“I think it is an unfortunate path he is taking, because the Holocaust is an effective weapon,” he told the Forward. “When the Holocaust is used as a weapon, it explains a lot of the lopsided foreign policy.”

But for Santomauro and many of his online friends, much of the problem with Weber is not his ideology, but his work output. Most prominent revisionists are prolific writers who will publish anywhere in order to have their views distributed. Under Weber, the institute has ceased publication of its journal and stopped hosting international conferences.

“He hasn’t done any work,” Smith said.

Aryeh Tuchman, director of the Anti-Defamation League’s Library and Research Center, said that Weber’s slowed production hurt the doubters and deniers of the Holocaust long before his new essay. “There is not a central Holocaust denial organization or body anymore,” Tuchman said. “There’s no one who can serve to motivate them anymore.”

The Iranian government, under President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, tried to take up this mantle when it hosted a conference with Holocaust doubters last year. But even Weber said that the conference didn’t do revisionists any favors.

“If the point of the conference was to be scholarly, the thing was a failure,” Weber said. “The thing only strengthened and confirmed the views people already had about Iran, Ahmadinejad and Israel.”

[QatzelOk]

Dempsey, what exactly are members of this forum supposed to do with this article?

It's illegal to deny the holocaust here at PoFo, so the only option for members is to talk about what a "sick, hateful and deluded" man this is.

Why not simply post a picture of him with an arrow through his head.

[Dempsey]

I never understand the point of Holocaust denying. If you hate Jews than you woluld like to support it, right? Maybe 30 years ago when this phenomenon started there was other motives.

[Todd D.]

It's the same thing as the fools who deny 9/11. They must because of their backwards ideology.

Racists have painted themselves in to a corner where they fundamentally can not accept that the group they hated the most was the "victim" of ANYTHING, or are blameless in ANYTHING. They MUST deny the Holocaust because to do otherwise would be extending sympathy to a group that they hate, and they just can't do that.

[Dave]

I don't understand why some anti-semites deny the Holocaust. If anything, shouldn't they celebrate the Holocaust?

[PBVBROOK]

I think Todd D. just nailed it.

Holocaust deniers are simply more of a fairly common group: Those who can't imagine that the focus of their hatred is human in any way.

While I would not support such a law in the United States for the obvious reason, the laws banning holocaust denial in Europe sure save us from a lot of spectularly stupid rhetoric on this site... Even if there were no law but Silver Fox I would applaud him making it a rule anyway.

[Dempsey]

Dave, that exactly my point.

[Dempsey]

Todd D

They MUST deny the Holocaust because to do otherwise would be extending sympathy to a group that they hate, and they just can't do that.

Sympathy? Why? When ever a bomb is off in Tel Aviv I see many Arabs dancing in the streets and sharing sweets. Could be something about the Holocaust or christendom civilization itself is diffrent?

[Todd D.]

Bombings, more often than not, are done in retaliation for something, in your case they celebrate retaliation for what they see as unjustified occupation of Israel. As such, they can "celebrate" it because (other than the fact that they are backwards idiots) they feel it's done IN RESPONSE to something.

The Holocaust was different. It was systemic genocide done for no reason other than the fact that they were Jewish. How could you defend that, how could you celebrate that? You can't, so they know that their choices are either sympathize with the Jews for the suffering that they went through, or deny that it ever happened. One lets you continue to irrationally hate them (perhaps even more, for "perpetrating a lie"), so the answer is obvious.

[QatzelOk]

It's the same thing as the fools who deny 9/11.

These guys hate Americans?

I don't get the connection at all. There are some 911 official story -deniers who LOVE Americans. They just don't like the elite, and suspect the motives of those who gained from this incident.

(finally, an historic event that's safe to talk about)

[Cheesecake_Marmalade]

^ So now you're just flat out ignoring people's posts?

[Dempsey]

Qatz doesn't deny the Holocaust yet he has no sympathy. I think 30 years ago many antisemites retreated to Holocaust denying because the Holocause supposedly gave the Jews a martyrdom status in Western world. The ongoing and the brutality of Arab Israeli conflict changed this perception. So Mark Weber could announce it doesn't really matter. What matters today is fighting against “Jewish-Zionist power.”

[Potemkin]

I think Dempsey has hit the nail on the head. Holocaust revisionism was only ever a means to an end. That end can now be better served by dropping Holocaust revisionism (which has been spectacularly unsuccessful) and focusing on other issues, such as the current victim status of the Palestinian people. Weber is simply calling for a rethink of the fundamental strategy of anti-Semitism.

[Cheesecake_Marmalade]

Why would it? All the zionism in the news media would give me more hatred (if I were an anti-semite), not less.

[Dempsey]

What Potemkin said.

In Germany, the Neo-Nazi National Democratic Party (NPD - Nationaldemokratische Partei Deutschlands) announced it would be mounting a protest march in Berlin on January 27, under the banner of "Stop the Israeli Holocaust in the Gaza Strip."

Barcelona cancels public service marking International Holocaust Remembrance Day in protest of Israeli offensive in Strip. "Marking the Jewish Holocaust while a Palestinian Holocaust is taking place is not right," a local City official told Barcelona's La Vanguardia newspaper.

Meanwhile, other European countries have also compared Israel's actions in Operation Cast Lead to those of Nazi Germany: A Norwegian diplomat stationed in Saudi Arabia sent a mass-distributed email stating that "the grandchildren of Holocaust survivors are doing the same thing to the Palestinians, as the Nazis did to their grandparents," using her official Norwegian Foreign Ministry address.

Jan 21, 2009 21:07 | Updated Jan 22, 2009 13:01

Neo-Nazis plan Gaza 'Holocaust' vigil in Berlin
By BENJAMIN WEINTHAL, JPOST CORRESPONDENT



The National Democratic Party (NPD), a German neo-Nazi party, announced on its Web site Monday that it will hold a solemn vigil on January 27 in downtown Berlin to "stop the Israeli holocaust in the Gaza Strip."

Hatred of Jews and Israel has over the years, particularly since the Second Lebanon War in 2006, unified diverse political groups in Germany, ranging from members of the German Left Party to pro-Hizbullah and pro-Hamas Islamists, to the NPD. Members of the Left Party, which is the fourth largest party in the Bundestag, with 54 deputies, marched in anti-Israeli demonstrations over the last three weeks in which protesters called for the destruction of Israel and the murder of Jews and Israelis.

According to an announcement on the NPD's Berlin chapter Web site on Monday, "efforts striving for a cease-fire, which are supposed to calm the world population, cannot conceal that the Israeli war is about a campaign of extermination. We are defending ourselves against foreign rule in our own land and recognize the right of the Palestinians to their own state without Israel's patronizing and dominating behavior."

The NPD is represented in a number of local city councils in Berlin districts and scored state-level victories in the state parliament of Saxony in 2004 and 2008, as well as in Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania in 2006.

"Joint hatred of everything Jewish is unifying neo-Nazis and Islamists... German-Palestinians protestors unashamedly admitted that they would vote for the NPD during the next election," Charlotte Knobloch, the head of the Central Council of Jews in Germany, warned in her speech at a pro-Israel rally earlier this month in Munich.

Knobloch noted that the alliance between Nazis and the Palestinians was not new and that in 1941 Adolf Hitler met the grand mufti of Jerusalem, Hajj Muhammad Amin al-Husseini, to secure his support for the Holocaust.



http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite? ... 2292928927

[goedel]

The hatred of Jews that was brought to a focus in the Holocaust was not without cause. Those who hated Jews, then and now, have had that hatred nourished by many causes. The Jews, themselves, have in some instances incited it. Rather than reiterate a well known (to readers) history of the rise of Christianity in Europe, I wish to make one observation:

In the US, Jews have risen to prominence in every profession (except the priesthood!) and business enterprise. Many have attained great wealth. Jews seem to love that prominence. Maybe, after centuries of confinement to ghettos, social restriction and limitation, we like to achieve not just success but prominence. I hope I don't get myself into trouble now, because I remark that Chinese Americans, just as brilliant in many professions and businesses, do not seem to want the limelight. I often wish that American Jews behaved more like Chinese Americans. I may be in trouble here, because I do not have any data to support my comparison and I may be wrong. There was a gentleman with a Chinese-sounding name in Bush's Justice Department, defending torture.

Obviously, I have the wish for less prominence, because I fear the consequences of it. Just consider the number of Jews who were Bush administration neocons! The problems of Iraq and Afghanistan could be laid by their antagonists on the shoulders of the Jews who supported Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld. Even worse, it is said that the Jewish neocons wanted a US invasion of Iraq in order to help Israel, and the Israel itself was an advocate of the US invasion. Dual loyalties they had or even a singular loyalty to the interests of Israel to the detriment of America!

The new administration has for its presidential Chief of Staff, Rahm Emmanuel, not just a Jew but a Jew who had gone to Israel to serve. He is repeatedly described in the media as an abrasive, sometimes foul-mouthed person. What do you know, just like a Jew! I wish Pres. Obama had found himself an abrasive, foul-mouthed Christian for his Chief of Staff, one with Emmanuel's desirable qualities. There must be many!

Then there is the Maddoff (sp?) guy! A reportedly $50 billion thief! Who but a Jew could do so much damage to so many people - unless he were one of the chief executives of the Wall Street raters: S&P, Moody, Fitch!

I am sorry to end so many sentences with exclamation points! We Jews do become emotional sometimes!

[QatzelOk]

Maybe, after centuries of confinement to ghettos, social restriction and limitation

Jeweries ran the national finances of European tyrants for centuries.

And then hung onto this entitlement after "democracy" was won by the other poorer classes. These rich Jeweries financed a lot of war machines, including the one that lead to Israel's creation on top of another poorer people.

Why did you not mention this bit of history in your post, Goedel? It's important to recognize where eurojews got their money and prominence from, isnt' it? Jewish wealth didn't just drop from the sky, it was given to them by the kings and Lords who shared with them a sense of birthright and entitlement.

This is the main reason why eurojews were hated by other Euros.

This and because Jewish media/academics make up so much fake history to bolster Jewish power. Slave revolt? Diaspora? These have all been disproven by Jewish historians like Dr Schlomo Sand. The fakeness of these mythological abstractions demonstrates a lack of integrity and objectivity. Jewish mythology seems to have been fabricated with self-interest in mind, rather than self-improvement or self-enlightenment.

[Cheesecake_Marmalade]

In the US, Jews have risen to prominence in every profession...and business enterprise... Jews seem to love that prominence...I hope I don't get myself into trouble now, because I remark that Chinese Americans, just as brilliant in many professions and businesses, do not seem to want the limelight. I often wish that American Jews behaved more like Chinese Americans.

Dude, stop being a self-hating jew. Why the fuck should jews be ashamed at their superior intellect, business skills, and professional achievements? If they have a couple centuries of attacks on their person, what's wrong with them wanting a little respect and prominence for themselves?

Just consider the number of Jews who were Bush administration neocons!

There were lots of Jews in the Bush administration because a disproportionate amount of jews are rich and thus more likely to be politicians. Also, neocons have a history of Zionism, something that would attract jews in droves.

[QatzelOk]

neocons have a history of Zionism

Neocons - aka the business elites - have a history of all forms of imperialism and entitlement, including the Zionist brand.

[NoRapture]

It's the same thing as the fools who deny 9/11.

The events of 9/11 bear no resemblance or connection to the Holocaust. And how do you "deny 9/11"? You say it didn't happen? Yes, I'd say that would be a backward ideology alright. Oh, I get it. You're backward if you don't believe we were bombed by Islam because they are jealous of our freedoms, love evil, hate good? If you believe there might be some facts, details, and caveats that were left out of the neocon playbook you are considered an idiot. Is that it?

Oh, sure. That'd be just exactly like denying Shoah. I just had to reason it out a little.