[Syd]

Berlin - This Tuesday, Germany will mark its guilt at starting the Second World War on September 1, 1939, German Chancellor Angela Merkel said in her weekly video address. Merkel, who is to attend ceremonies in Gdansk, where the Nazis launched the invasion of Poland, said Saturday, "This war brought immeasurable suffering to Europe and the world.
"It cost the lives of 60 million people. It fixed the political order in Europe for decades."
She said she was glad she had been invited to the Gdansk memorial ceremony where others present would include Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin and French Prime Minister Francois Fillon.
"We won't meet as enemies but as partners," she said.
"September 1 is obviously a day of sorrow for the suffering and of remembrance for the guilt that Germany acquired from the start of the Second World War.
"But it is also a day of gratitude and trust," she added, referring to the post-War reconciliation between the Germans and Poles and the other former enemies.

Source

Any surprises here? Anything new? I shouldn't think so.

[MB.]

I think nations should stop celebrating anniversaries of wars.

[QatzelOk]

I think nations should stop celebrating anniversaries of wars.

It wouldn't be such a bad thing to mark these anniversaries by looking at all the propaganda that was told about them.

[Rojik of the Arctic]

Hypocrites. If they had have won they would be holding torchlight parades while they Seig Heiled their Aryan arms off. So called German guilt pisses me off.

[Oxymoron]

It is a day of shame, they did lose.

[Annatar]

It's always amazing to see this woman find another excuse to curry up to foreigners and put down her own country. I bet you won't hear Putin talking about Russia's guilt in the invasion of Poland.

[GandalfTheGrey]

Hypocrites. If they had have won they would be holding torchlight parades while they Seig Heiled their Aryan arms off. So called German guilt pisses me off.

that makes no sense.

[Thompson_NCL]

The Germans should stop feeling guilty about WWII, they have nothing to feel guilty about.

[Oxymoron]

So destroying your own country and loosing badly is something to be proud of?

[Captain Sam]

It's always amazing to see this woman find another excuse to curry up to foreigners and put down her own country. I bet you won't hear Putin talking about Russia's guilt in the invasion of Poland.

Russia didn't systematically kill 6 million Jews and 1.5 million Roma.

[Annatar]

Russia didn't systematically kill 6 million Jews and 1.5 million Roma.

What a braindead straw man.

Merkel was referring to the invasion of Poland, not genocide.

[GandalfTheGrey]

Merkel was referring to the invasion of Poland, not genocide.

Even more braindead. The crime of aggressive war - ie invasion of Poland - was correctly judged to be the "supreme crime" - from which all other crimes that happened during the war were spawned from.

[Smilin' Dave]

I bet you won't hear Putin talking about Russia's guilt in the invasion of Poland.

Well, my understanding of it was the Russians/Soviets justified the invasion of Poland as reclaiming parts of Ukraine and Belorussia lost towards the end of the Russo-Polish war in 1921. Germany on the other hand invaded Poland because it was Poland. Before someone brings up Danzig etc., this doesn't remotely explain the destruction of the whole Polish state. So while both are fairly despicable acts, one is worse than the other.

The Germans should stop feeling guilty about WWII, they have nothing to feel guilty about.

I would say the unprovoked invasion of Poland would be a good start as to why there should be guilt attached to WWII for the Germans (whether this should continue now is another story). So poor was the German case for war they had to manufacture the Gleiwitz incident.

[Annatar]

Well, my understanding of it was the Russians/Soviets justified the invasion of Poland as reclaiming parts of Ukraine and Belorussia lost towards the end of the Russo-Polish war in 1921.

Russia invaded Poland for the same reason as Germany: to increase its territory and power. Had Russia merely wanted back its former lands it wouldn't have annexed the Baltics and attacked Finland shortly after the invasion of Poland.

I would say the unprovoked invasion of Poland would be a good start as to why there should be guilt attached to WWII for the Germans

Poland provoked Germany by oppressing the German minority in its lands and by cutting off Danzig and East Prussia from Germany. That alone was more than enough to justify the invasion of Poland.

The crime of aggressive war - ie invasion of Poland - was correctly judged to be the "supreme crime" - from which all other crimes that happened during the war were spawned from.

Bollocks. The starting point for the vast majority of crimes was the invasion of the USSR and Germany's subsequent failure to quickly defeat the Soviet Union.

[Order]

I would say the unprovoked invasion of Poland would be a good start as to why there should be guilt attached to WWII for the Germans (whether this should continue now is another story). So poor was the German case for war they had to manufacture the Gleiwitz incident.

I think this thread is about whether today's Germans should feel guilt, not whether WW2 was Germany's fault (which isn't really that contentious). So, no, there seems to be no reason why the current generation of Germans should feel guily.

[Smilin' Dave]

Had Russia merely wanted back its former lands it wouldn't have annexed the Baltics and attacked Finland shortly after the invasion of Poland.

Those were both part of the former Russian Empire...

Poland provoked Germany by oppressing the German minority in its lands

First, supposed Polish oppression of Germans in Poland is often taken out of context, and second it wasn't that significant. On the other hand, there is the opposite example of German oppression of Poles in their lands, including land that had been part of Poland in the past, but subject to Germanisation.

by cutting off Danzig and East Prussia from Germany

That was the Treaty of Versailles, rather than Poland. Further, wasn't Poland entitled to access to Gdynia? German proposals to resolve the split would have landlocked Poland. Finally I seem to remember the Poles didn't militarise the corridor until the lead up to German invasion (you know, after the dismemberment of Czechoslovakia).

If your case for war is so compelling, why did the Nazis stage Gleiwitz?

The starting point for the vast majority of crimes was the invasion of the USSR and Germany's subsequent failure to quickly defeat the Soviet Union.

Yet the atrocities in the Soviet Union started the same way they did in Poland in 1939, with the Einsatzgruppen.

So, no, there seems to be no reason why the current generation of Germans should feel guily.

Guilt? No. Remembered? Yes. Certainly defended from idiot revisionists.

[Annatar]

Those were both part of the former Russian Empire...

But not taken from Russia during the Russo-Polish war, which you claimed was the casus belli for Russia's invasion of Poland.

On the other hand, there is the opposite example of German oppression of Poles in their lands, including land that had been part of Poland in the past, but subject to Germanisation.

And if Poland could have done something to stop Germanisation, it would have done so.

That was the Treaty of Versailles, rather than Poland.

Initially, yes. Poland, however, went far beyond what Versailles had intended and boycotted land trade with East Prussia and Danzig and also made it difficult for Germans to visit friends or family in Danzig or East Prussia.

German proposals to resolve the split would have landlocked Poland.

Germany offered Poland harbours in Danzig.

(you know, after the dismemberment of Czechoslovakia).

You mean, the one Poland partook in?

If your case for war is so compelling, why did the Nazis stage Gleiwitz?

It's always nice to claim one's country was attacked first since the people are unable to grasp geopolitical reasoning. USS Maine, Gulf of Tonkin and so on.

Yet the atrocities in the Soviet Union started the same way they did in Poland in 1939, with the Einsatzgruppen.

It happened on a much much larger scale in the Soviet Union since the Einsatzgruppen did not only kill people considered dangerous because of their political beliefs or social status as they did in Poland, Austria and Bohemia and Moravia but because of their ethnicity.

[Smilin' Dave]

But not taken from Russia during the Russo-Polish war, which you claimed was the casus belli for Russia's invasion of Poland.

Given that Poland wasn’t in an alliance with Finland etc. what does that have to do with anything? My explanation explains the Soviet motivation (rather than a justification), your objection makes no sense.

And if Poland could have done something to stop Germanisation, it would have done so.

Not going to try to back up the bit about Germans being oppressed?

You can’t take a moral justification when you are just as deep in the mud as the other guy, if not deeper. This might makes right response you have given us again makes no sense. This discussion is starting to stink of argument for the sake of it.

Initially, yes. Poland, however, went far beyond what Versailles had intended and boycotted land trade with East Prussia and Danzig and also made it difficult for Germans to visit friends or family in Danzig or East Prussia.

Using your approach above, shouldn’t Poland be allowed to stop German encroachment or migration? Especially with the Nazis sending aid to the Selbschutz (sp?). You have gone from not making much sense to contradictory.

Question, how does this Polish obstructionism justify a war that destroys Poland as a state?

Germany offered Poland harbours in Danzig.

Wonderful, a port which can only be accessed through German territory. Given the issues Poland had with logistics in non-Polish controlled ports during its war with the Bolsheviks, it’s hard to see why they should accept such a deal.

You mean, the one Poland partook in?

This isn’t even very good moral equivalency. Poland got a piece of Czechoslovakia with IIRC a Ruthenian majority, much like the neighbouring Polish areas. The Nazis took the Sudentenland (seen as German), then Bohemia-Moravia (not German) and arranged the creation of the separation of a puppet state for the Slovaks (not German, not in the traditional German national interest). The Poles took a cut of a state the Nazis destroyed, and probably would not have done so otherwise.

It's always nice to claim one's country was attacked first since the people are unable to grasp geopolitical reasoning. USS Maine, Gulf of Tonkin and so on.

So a justifiable war that no one outside of an obscure elite will find justifiable? Didn’t Germans in Germany care about their cousins in Poland?

It happened on a much much larger scale in the Soviet Union since the Einsatzgruppen did not only kill people considered dangerous because of their political beliefs or social status as they did in Poland, Austria and Bohemia and Moravia but because of their ethnicity.

Still sounds like you are describing the initial crime from which all others followed. The expanded role of the Einsatzgruppen follows an evolution which started in Poland, which was GtG’s point.

[Rojik of the Arctic]

that makes no sense.

What makes no sense? That if the Germans had have achieved overlordship of Europe they would be celebrating this day? The Germans (by and large) were more than happy to go along with Nazi plans for domination until the destruction they visited was repaid with interest on their beloved Fatherland.

[Annatar]

Not going to try to back up the bit about Germans being oppressed?

-Poland locked up 16.000 Germans in concentration camps around the area of Pozen in the early twenties.
-Poland evicted all Germans who came to the Polish ruled regions after 1908 in 1922.
-Poland fired all German officials and closed half of all German schools and universities and bilingual education was suspended.
-Poland forced the Germans to decide between Germany and Austria or Poland, and evicted those who chose the former in 1925.
-Poland annule business treaties with Germans and banned them from state-assisted medical care.
-Sporadic violence against German businesses and farms.

This oppression was of course not only targeted at Germans but at anyone who was not Polish.

In case you want a source for my claims, I'll have to disappoint you. I can only give you a source in German, which I assume you don't understand.

Using your approach above, shouldn’t Poland be allowed to stop German encroachment or migration?

Poland should do whatever it wants but not play the poor victim when it reaps what I saws, just like Germany should not complain when the war comes back to its own land.

Question, how does this Polish obstructionism justify a war that destroys Poland as a state?

Polish treatment of its German minority was unbearable for Germany and the treatment of its Orthodox minorities was unbearable for Russia. The partition of Poland between Russia and Germany was therefore justified to prevent mistreatment of the German minority and the Orthodox minorities at the hands of the Poles. Keeping an entirely Polish Poland as a buffer-state between Germany and the USSR would have been even better but that sadly was not on Hitler's mind.

Given the issues Poland had with logistics in non-Polish controlled ports during its war with the Bolsheviks, it’s hard to see why they should accept such a deal.

To prevent or at least delay a German invasion.

So a justifiable war that no one outside of an obscure elite will find justifiable?

It's always the elite that justifies war. The plebs doesn't involve itself in the justification of war since it doesn't want war.

To quote Goering:

Why, of course, the people don't want war. Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece. Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship.

Still sounds like you are describing the initial crime from which all others followed.

The invasion of Poland did neither cause nor necessitate the invasion of the Soviet Union.

The expanded role of the Einsatzgruppen follows an evolution which started in Poland, which was GtG’s point.

The evolution of the Einsatzgruppen was not a well-thought out process. The Einsatzgruppen got the order to kill based on ethnicity when Hitler spontaneously decided to kill the Jews of the USSR as partisans.