[Repeat to Fade]

In a lot of documentaries about the holocaust you will find the interviewed Germans talk of their shock over the holocaust. They say they never knew anything about it.

But when you read an autobiography of a holocaust survivor many will talk about their fear of Auschwitz and the certain death that awaited there. They understood what it meant to be sent there.

So my question is this: If the Jews, cut off from the rest of society knew what was going on then how could the rest of the population have no idea?

Is the hidden holocaust a myth created in order to subdue anti-German sentiment and soothe the post war conscience of Germans?

[Fasces]

I don't think the Jews knew that what awaited them was not a chain and slavery but the incinerator. While the camps themselves were public knowledge, as I understand it what actually occurred was not well known.

[William_H_Dougherty]

In a lot of documentaries about the holocaust you will find the interviewed Germans talk of their shock over the holocaust. They say they never knew anything about it.

I think this is wishful thinking on their part, and to a large degree of cognative dissonance. Good people (or rather, people who self identify as a "good person") don't want to think of themselves as having any responsibility for the holocaust, so they've retreated to the moral low ground of having known nothing about it.

Clearly, from everything I've read, Germans knew that something sinister was afoot. I think it is probably true that they didn't know that their regime was murderous at the scale of the systematic murder of an entire ethnic group, but they knew Jews were having their lives ruined, their jobs, belongings, and dignity being stolen from them by their State. I think many of them also knew they were being used as a slave labour, and that the promises of "relocation" were false.

But when you read an autobiography of a holocaust survivor many will talk about their fear of Auschwitz and the certain death that awaited there. They understood what it meant to be sent there.

I think that is a bit of inside baseball. Sorry to use such a flippant term, but I think WITHIN the concentration camp network there was definately an ominous association with Auschwitz and the other "Death Camps". However, from what I've read, many Jews dismissed this as exactly that, an impossible rumour. Why would a State murder a slave workforce, afterall...

So my question is this: If the Jews, cut off from the rest of society knew what was going on then how could the rest of the population have no idea?

They had an idea. Perhaps not exactly to the extent of what actually happened, but they knew their fellow citizens were being reduced to slaves and being abused, up to and including murder.

Noowwwwww. I think it is safe to say that within the conquered territories, like Poland where Aushwitz was located, that the local civilian population knew EXACTLY what was going on there. The SD was insidiously clever, and did a disturbingly excellent job of making sure nobody knew the whole story, just bits and pieces.

Is the hidden holocaust a myth created in order to subdue anti-German sentiment and soothe the post war conscience of Germans?

Hmmmmmmm. I think more the second than the first. As I said, this is actually a common psychological phenomenon, cognitive dissonance. There might not be some conspiracy behind this. Germans truly want to believe that had they known, they would have done something.

Lets remind ourselves of another myth, this one spread by Nazis and accepted many today in the Western World, that Adolf Hitler had been supported by a majority of Germans.

Not a single election, even the later ones that were rife with intimidation and had entire large parties banned from participation, handed the Nazis over 50% of the popular vote. Which means that, even when people could get the crab beaten out of them for not voting for the Nazis, most of the VOTING POPULATION sided with other candidates.

So that begs the question; why did so few of the majority of Germans who never bought into Hitler remain silent during all of this? At first, I can understand that Hitler's foreign policy manuevres temporary silenced critics. Yet despite the propaganda, Germans were not happy with the Declaration of War on Poland in 1939, they were not happy with the Declaration of War on the Soviet Union in 1941.

The Gestapo was quite worried, actually, about the lack of enthusiasm for these wars. Yet only the most minimal resistence to Hitler's Regime ever surfaced, even in the darkest of days...

I don't think the Jews knew that what awaited them was not a chain and slavery but the incinerator. While the camps themselves were public knowledge, as I understand it what actually occurred was not well known.

+1.

- WHD

[Thunderhawk]

For those who were part of the groups being shipped to the camps, any information about the camps that came there way was important, and thus remembered and shared within their group. That few people ever left, especially as the years passed, would be noticed by the family and friends of those sent. For people who were not part of the targetted groups, why would they care about details and the people when they are unaffected?

For those people, it was better to look away and ignore.

[cicero91]

i think it doesn't have to do with not taking care
the problem was the propaganda ministry did disguise all the deportations organized by the nazi officials and assured by the wannsee conference's final decisions.
the nazis always tried to hide every information to not make change the perception of their adherents...
but nevertheless there were ones who did obviously know, but observed or even scrared into silence violently bý nazis...

[Thunderhawk]

I am not saying they did not know something bad was happening - the German nation is not blind and stupid. Im saying they chose to look the other way and follow the party/propaganda line rather then inquire about specifics. Many people probably thought about the Jews, their fate and the system, especially after reading Mein Kampf or talking to some one who had.

[pugsville]

Right from the start there was no doubt that the Nazi regeime was a murderous one, the communists were among the firsts. Everyone knew that murder was going on the exact extent and the wholesale nature perhaps wasnt obivious but there was no doubt that large scale murder and massive oppression was going on just as the price of speaking out about it.

[Repeat to Fade]

the problem was the propaganda ministry did disguise all the deportations organized by the nazi officials and assured by the wannsee conference's final decisions.

Now that is the kind of bullshit I object to. Not only is it hard enough to cover up the formation and then massacre in ghettos, but you would notice 6 million missing people. Not to mention all the man power that was needed, builders, railway workers etc. It was hardly something that could be hidden.

[William_H_Dougherty]

Now that is the kind of bullshit I object to. Not only is it hard enough to cover up the formation and then massacre in ghettos, but you would notice 6 million missing people. Not to mention all the man power that was needed, builders, railway workers etc. It was hardly something that could be hidden.

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I think you have to consider WHERE these massacres are occurring. You have been primarily referencing activities that happened in Poland (Auschwitz, the Warsaw Ghetto Massacre). I'm not sure it is reasonable to expect a so-called "Ethnic German" living in Dresden or Frankfurt to know such specific details.

I agree, however, that most Germans should have known that something very, very sinister was afoot. That the promises of "relocation" were false and that the rights of German Jews were being systematically violated, up to and including murder. As for a concerted effort at Genocide, I'm not sure they knew that specifically.

Even the Allied Forces, which talked a LOT about the treatment of Jews in Germany during the war, they were somewhat taken off guard when a lot of their propaganda about the Germans actually turned out to be true.

Im saying they chose to look the other way and follow the party/propaganda line rather then inquire about specifics.

For people who were not part of the targetted groups, why would they care about details and the people when they are unaffected?

On the first quote, agreement. On the second quote; are you serious? Wouldn't you care if some of your neighbours started disappearing?

If you read the accounts of ethnic non-nazi germans, they did care. However, not enough to risk their own necks. It was an issue of perhaps cowardice, maybe helplessness, and definately of wishful thinking (of ignoring the facts that were right in front of them).

- WHD

[Repeat to Fade]

Even the Allied Forces, which talked a LOT about the treatment of Jews in Germany during the war, they were somewhat taken off guard when a lot of their propaganda about the Germans actually turned out to be true.

Actually we knew and had been aware for some time.

[cicero91]

Now that is the kind of bullshit I object to. Not only is it hard enough to cover up the formation and then massacre in ghettos, but you would notice 6 million missing people. Not to mention all the man power that was needed, builders, railway workers etc. It was hardly something that could be hidden.

you deny historical facts, and as it was even mentionned, if you take the geographic locations of all the concentration camps into consideration you'll ascertain the fact, that it was impossible to follow the vestiges...and in fact, the propaganda ministry did hide all the problems and whatever came up once was eliminated or watered down...
but nevertheless it might be quite possible there were people who were informed but remained silent for fear of law enforcement conducted by the nazis.

[William_H_Dougherty]

Actually we knew and had been aware for some time.

I'm not sure what your reading is, and I'm not saying you are wrong, but from what I've read the Allied Propagandists were actually quite suprised when what they were telling their soldiers turned out not only to be true, but a watered down version of what was true.

Also, my understanding is that the Allied Supreme Command and top circles of the UK and USA governments did get some info about the holocaust leaked to them, but they were never completely sure about it's accuracy.

During the First World War, for instance, the rhetoric from the Allies about the German treatment of civllian population of conquered territories was full of stories of mass killings, etc. Canadian Propagandists actually ran (false) stories about the Germans murdering priests and raping nuns. The slightest rumour was treated as fact and this caused a TREMENDOUS amount of embarassment after the war.

It made a lot of soldiers and the civilian population not take Allied Propaganda of the Second World War (at least as it concerned the Germans) very seriously and, as I indicated, many of the propagandists didn't even take it seriously personally.

It is always very easy, after-the-fact, to say what people should have known, based on information, but you have to realize there were a lot of half truths and crazy stories swirling around at the time. The Germans even set up "mock" concentration camps and allowed religious and secular independents visit them to spread rumours that they were actually no different than an American Prison or Japanese Internment Camp.

but nevertheless it might be quite possible there were people who were informed but remained silent for fear of law enforcement conducted by the nazis

The average German should have known enough to take action, I don't dispute that. I do dispute that the exact details were known to the German population and the extent of their State's crimes.

- WHD

[Repeat to Fade]

you deny historical facts

No you obviously just can't understand them. We are talking about mechanized genocide it required the input and support of the civilian population. Not only was the violence and dwindling amount of Jews left oh so difficult to hide the final solution required involvement from the civilian population. From those operating the railways, building the camps, the gas, living nearby, taking over the previously owned shops and houses.

The Germans and the state did not hide their anti-semitism and the idea that they missed the massive investment and coordination needed for industrialised slaughter is laughable.

One thing that makes conspiracy theories like the moon landings being faked so obviously false is that it requires a vast amount of people to have kept silent about it. How many people do you imagine were involved in the holocaust?

I'm not sure what your reading is, and I'm not saying you are wrong, but from what I've read the Allied Propagandists were actually quite suprised when what they were telling their soldiers turned out not only to be true, but a watered down version of what was true.

There were alot of stories coming out at the time, Pilecki being notable. In 1942 the BBC were running stories about nearly a million already killed, it was discussed at Bermuda.

In fact most damning of all was the December 1942 condemnation of the extermination of the Jews. It is undeniable that we knew and inconceivable that the Germans didn't.

[cicero91]

The average German should have known enough to take action, I don't dispute that. I do dispute that the exact details were known to the German population and the extent of their State's crimes.

in germany a wave of uprising has developed in the shape of the goerdeler circle, the white rose, the attempted assassination of hitler by stauffenberg, general in the africa campaign and so on, all of them were eliminated.

No you obviously just can't understand them. We are talking about mechanized genocide it required the input and support of the civilian population. Not only was the violence and dwindling amount of Jews left oh so difficult to hide the final solution required involvement from the civilian population. From those operating the railways, building the camps, the gas, living nearby, taking over the previously owned shops and houses.

first thing we're talking about how much did the germans know! in fact there were many people who participated and helped the nazis by telling where jews were situated and so on, even in france klaus barbie to name one...
but in fact the hitler regime and propaganda ministry did disguise the extermination of the jews- that's why the wannsee konferenz remained a secret- though revealing their antisemitism.

[William_H_Dougherty]

in germany a wave of uprising has developed in the shape of the goerdeler circle, the white rose, the attempted assassination of hitler by stauffenberg, general in the africa campaign and so on, all of them were eliminated.

cicero91, the goerdeler, white rose and stauffenberg incidents can HARDLY be considered a "wave".

I'm sorry, but the Soviets had a very good point when they asked the sizeable number of German Communists and Democrats "in-hiding" who came out of the woodwork "why they hadn't fought with the partisans". Why did all the other countries in Europe have a sizeable and organized anti-fascist movement? One that didn't involve a clique of opportunistic officers and ideological citizens? One that involved everyday citizens directing violence against the state? Note that this is EVEN the case of other countries that were willing belligerents and allies of Germany (Italy, Romania, etc.).

I don't think it was because every German bought into Hitler.

Perhaps Stalin said it best, something to the effect of: there will never be a revolution in a country where citizens are afraid of people stepping on their lawns.

- WHD

[cicero91]

cicero91, the goerdeler, white rose and stauffenberg incidents can HARDLY be considered a "wave".

whether you call it wave, movement or whatelse, does not change the fact that it was UPRISING...
the crucial point is, that it was impossible to launch appeal or conduct any kind of attacks, because the nazi regime placed their spies somewhere for preventing any violence directed to the state...
in the case of being caught by the SS, gestapo or whatever, insurgents were accused of treason and executed.

[William_H_Dougherty]

whether you call it wave, movement or whatelse, does not change the fact that it was UPRISING...

Uprisings generally look like this:



Not like this:



The best the "German Resistence" was able to accomplish was a coup that had little chance of ever working.

the crucial point is, that it was impossible to launch appeal or conduct any kind of attacks, because the nazi regime placed their spies somewhere for preventing any violence directed to the state...

And that was not the case in Italy? They invented the concentration camp and the modern secret police (re: ORVA) and political militia (MVSN). Yet many civilians went out and got themselves killed trying to kill fascists, domestic and foreign, and to sabotage their war effort. They put defending human dignity above their nationalism.

in the case of being caught by the SS, gestapo or whatever, insurgents were accused of treason and executed.

Again, Germany was not the only State that treated dissenters and partisans in a harsh manner. Yet it was the only State in Europe without a sizeable civilian resistence to the Regime, including countries that were not conquered and joined the Axis voluntarily.

- WHD

[cicero91]

And that was not the case in Italy? They invented the concentration camp

the english invented the concentration camp while the colonialization time in africa in the boer war..
in fact i agree about the resistance being stronger in the countries you mentionned.
the german one did not change anything as an outcome

[William_H_Dougherty]

the english invented the concentration camp while the colonialization time in africa in the boer war..

Well, we can't have that. The idea that Italy might have been a copycat of the United Kingdom, even basing it's foreign policy on 19th Century British example, from so-called battleship diplomacy and gaining advantage through a threat of war never meant to be followed through on, to the quest for colonies in Africa... no, no, no...!

That would be quite uncomfortable to think that the Country invading a small sliver of Africa had gained inspiration from the two countries which collectively owned the majority of Africa... .

in fact i agree about the resistance being stronger in the countries you mentionned.
the german one did not change anything as an outcome

Yeah, I'm not sure we are having a disagreement. I think we can say objectively that there was a sizeable number of Germans who disapproved of Hitler, but it was only a small minority of those who were in positions of power who actually decided to do something about it. I'm not sure if that is a cultural phenomenon, but the reality is that in other countries, many ordinary citizens took up arms against their own State and even killed their own countrymen (and women), while in Germany this did not happen on anything approximately a large scale. Seriously, even Stauffenburg had a lot of difficulty convincing his co-conspirators that the assasination of Hitler was a necessary prerequsite, as others argued he had to be tried and sentenced by the State for it to be legitimate.

In fact, this semi-pacifism seemed to infect a lot of people. The few cases of everyday citizens dissenting took the form of demonstration and protest, and the State easily dealth with these people (as in tortured, tried, tortured again, and then executed).

Yet to take this conversation on another tangent, what is somewhat more disturbing to me are the people who were neither Nazis nor pacificstic anti-Nazis (although those are disturbing enough). There existed another large segment of the German population, of bland people who infiltrated the German Bureaucracy and did nothing, absolutely nothing. They knew of much of what the Nazis were up to but felt no responsibility and did nothing.

They were opportunistic technocrats, perhaps best symbolized as Albert Speer, the close friend of hitler and armaments czar who somehow had no what was going on, who somehow didn't know his "miracles" of production where being achieved through slave labour...

If Repeat to Fade is looking for someone to symbolize the myth of the hidden holocaust, it is Albert Speer.

I have no doubt, as many biographers have indicated, that Albert Speer wanted to be oblivious of all the pain going on, but the reality is that it is just not believable that he didn't know about the holocaust. And his after the fact "I should have known" is a bunch of B.S. if you ask me, even more B.S. than his "I tried to kill Hitler" story and even more B.S. than his "I told Hitler I disobeyed his orders" story just before he committed suicide.

Rather, this is what he wants to have done but never did.

- WHD

[Smilin' Dave]

This is somewhat relevant:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T4_Program#Opposition
1. It is an example of opposition to murder, without there necessarily being an uprising.
2. On the other hand, it probably served as a useful learning experience for the regime. The Holocaust, unlike T4, would be a better kept secret which would make opposition unlikely.
3. An important distinction might be that T4 left behind families who could protest. The Holocaust by function takes the whole family. You're less likely to get complaints about something when there are few people left with a close connection to the 'issue'.