[Buzz62]

Before we get into this, I want to make it PERFECTLY CLEAR that my purpose here is NOT to deny the Holocaust, as I am well aware of the truth of this ugly blot on human history.

But my wife's been reading a book lately, which she discusses with me, and it's brought to light a number of questions I need answering in a satisfactory manner. In other words...

"To ask such questions makes you (Buzz62) a filthy Nazi pig!"

Would not classify as a satisfactory answer. Let's PLEASE try hard to discuss this honestly.
I really do want to find the truth of these matters.

Here are the Questions:

- Look at the blueprints of Auschwitz. Could 2,000 people really have fit into that "gas chamber"?

- Look at the poor design of the Auschwitz "killing center", first they take their clothes off, then walk through a narrow isle into the "gas chamber", then they die. So after that they have to be cremated. The ovens are on the second story. They have to take the dead bodies up on an elevator (slow process). Then they cremate them, which takes a very, very long time. Consider that Auschwitz wasn't functioning for very long.

- According to "eyewitnesses" there were only 4 Germans monitoring the process and about 100 Jews doing the dirty work. There were 2,000 people about to be killed and thousands more in the living quarters. The "death center" wasn't fenced around, it was open and in direct sight of people in the living quarters. Don't you think they would have rebelled against 4 puny guards?

- According to "eyewitnesses" 90% of Jews coming from being captured in cities were directly sent to the "gas chambers" . So, they weren't starving, they had just been out on the streets living life and may actually have been strong. They could have easily rebelled.

- If they were going to kill them, why would Germans make living quarters? Why would Himmler order that more living quarters be built? Why wouldn't they just fill up the place with "gas chambers" so they could kill more people quicker? Why would they make a soccer field for people they were going to kill? Why were they trying to negotiate with Great Britain to make a Jewish Homeland in Palestine? Why would they try to make a Jewish homeland in Madagascar?

NOTE: These questions taken verbatim from: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20120812214002AA7rKli

AGAIN...I truly want to discuss and find reasonable answers to these questions.
But I have a sinking feeling that there will be some who cannot resist trashing this thread with insults and crapolla...

Thus..."let the feathers fly"...

[Buzz62]

Excuse the double-post please, but...nobody wants to discuss this?
Why?
Are there really no facts to refute this?
If there are...I really do wanna see them.

[feihua]

Excuse the double-post please, but...nobody wants to discuss this?
Why?
Are there really no facts to refute this?
If there are...I really do wanna see them.

I gave you some attention.

I came to the conclusion that wikipedia gets a bad rap.

Here are the Questions:

- Look at the blueprints of Auschwitz. Could 2,000 people really have fit into that "gas chamber"?

- Look at the poor design of the Auschwitz "killing center", first they take their clothes off, then walk through a narrow isle into the "gas chamber", then they die. So after that they have to be cremated. The ovens are on the second story. They have to take the dead bodies up on an elevator (slow process). Then they cremate them, which takes a very, very long time. Consider that Auschwitz wasn't functioning for very long.

- According to "eyewitnesses" there were only 4 Germans monitoring the process and about 100 Jews doing the dirty work. There were 2,000 people about to be killed and thousands more in the living quarters. The "death center" wasn't fenced around, it was open and in direct sight of people in the living quarters. Don't you think they would have rebelled against 4 puny guards?

- According to "eyewitnesses" 90% of Jews coming from being captured in cities were directly sent to the "gas chambers" . So, they weren't starving, they had just been out on the streets living life and may actually have been strong. They could have easily rebelled.

- If they were going to kill them, why would Germans make living quarters? Why would Himmler order that more living quarters be built? Why wouldn't they just fill up the place with "gas chambers" so they could kill more people quicker? Why would they make a soccer field for people they were going to kill? Why were they trying to negotiate with Great Britain to make a Jewish Homeland in Palestine? Why would they try to make a Jewish homeland in Madagascar?

NOTE: These questions taken verbatim from: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20120812214002AA7rKli

You should have included the rest of the posting from Yahoo answers so the readers can get a load of the guy posting such questions. Here is the rest of that posting:

- Nazi Germany did many, many great things. (To name a few)
..........Richest country in Europe w/ best functioning economy on Earth in 5 years
..........Living costs up 25%
..........Everyone was employed
..........Passed animal welfare laws (never before seen)
..........Engineers and scientists developed technology at rates never before seen
..........Invented technology we used to go up to space
..........Invented Freeways
..........Didn't rely on greedy Zionist bankers anymore, and thus the German economy skyrocketed

Zionists didn't care about Jews or a Jewish state in Palestine (Israel) They cared about retaining power and growing richer. Hitler opposed this (Zionist Globalism). So they set out to crush him, his party and his nation.

To cover up all the great things Nazi Germany did (which by far outweigh any negativity), they came up with rubbish such as the Holocaust.

Don't fall into the trap. Do your own research.

That is the kind of guy that presents such questions. He does not appear to be accepting of the facts that would answer the questions in the first place.

Are there really no facts to refute this?
If there are...I really do wanna see them.

Don't fall into the trap. Do your own research.

Wikipedia is more than acceptable for this research.

David Fisher answered the following question presented:

Why do some people not believe the Holocaust happened?

Some people believe that the Holocaust never happened. All those who do not believe, opinions please!

David Fisher denies the Holocaust. Buzz62, you are wanting answers to questions presented by one who denies the Holocaust took place.

As you say "I am well aware of the truth of this ugly blot on human history," the need to support the ponderings of David Fisher is ponderous.

[Buzz62]

Why is it "ponderous"?

I did read the entire post on Yahoo feihua.
And I found the rebuttals based on emotion and lacking in facts.

I didn't include the rest of that post because I am only concerned with this part.

David Fisher may be a bastard...but he has posed some interesting ideas.
If I understand the main issue he has correctly...how exactly did 2000 people get gassed in that facility daily?
Why can't anyone refute these questions/ideas?

[feihua]

Why is it "ponderous"?

I did read the entire post on Yahoo feihua.
And I found the rebuttals based on emotion and lacking in facts.

I didn't include the rest of that post because I am only concerned with this part.

David Fisher may be a bastard...but he has posed some interesting ideas.
If I understand the main issue he has correctly...how exactly did 2000 people get gassed in that facility daily?
Why can't anyone refute these questions/ideas?

It is ponderous because you can't understand he is denying the Holocaust in the first place.

Even the dynamics in his questions are wrong.

He only wants to know how could 2000 people fit into a gas chamber. An answer such as "they picked the lock" is not acceptable?!?

Now, you are taking that question of his and changing it to "how exactly did 2000 people get gassed in that facility daily?"

Which facility?!? Auschwitz I? Auschwitz II? Auschwitz III?!?

He talks about second floors for crying out loud. Were the crematoriums not on the first floor and the morgues in the basement?

Were not 20,000 killed daily?

Does one really think only four guards were present and that they were puny?!?

They're dumb questions with inaccurate data.

"....they weren't starving, they had just been out on the streets living life and may actually have been strong?!?" David Fisher is a nutcase.

The question Why would they make a soccer field for people they were going to kill? is hysterical. The Taliban would get a lot of sad laughs from the women if they allowed them to read it.

[Buzz62]

It is ponderous because you can't understand he is denying the Holocaust in the first place.

Even the dynamics in his questions are wrong.

He only wants to know how could 2000 people fit into a gas chamber. An answer such as "they picked the lock" is not acceptable?!?

Now, you are taking that question of his and changing it to "how exactly did 2000 people get gassed in that facility daily?"

Which facility?!? Auschwitz I? Auschwitz II? Auschwitz III?!?

He talks about second floors for crying out loud. Were the crematoriums not on the first floor and the morgues in the basement?

Were not 20,000 killed daily?

Does one really think only four guards were present and that they were puny?!?

They're dumb questions with inaccurate data.

"....they weren't starving, they had just been out on the streets living life and may actually have been strong?!?" David Fisher is a nutcase.

The question Why would they make a soccer field for people they were going to kill? is hysterical. The Taliban would get a lot of sad laughs from the women if they allowed them to read it.

GOOD!
It sounds like you know allot of the facts and answers.
Let's see them please?

[feihua]

GOOD!
It sounds like you know allot of the facts and answers.
Let's see them please?

Google Auschwitz wiki. Please.

It's a very depressing read.

Or.......

Watch Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred A. Leuchter, Jr. directed by Errol Morris.

It's a very interesting movie.



Sorry. I'm not into the Holocaust that much.

[Buzz62]

I will thanks.
Then I'll get back to ya.

[feihua]

I will thanks.
Then I'll get back to ya.

You don't have to. I will be out. Enjoy, enjoy.

[Xbow]

Hey why did the main man civil engineer Hans Kammler redesign the crematoriums atl the major death camps to achieve a faster corpse disposal rate? And with his slave labor program he had it figured out down to the last calorie how little a Jewish, Polish or Russian Slave could be fed and still give him a year of hard labor before Kicking-Off.

Buzz62 the main killer in Nazi concentration camps was not the gas chambers bullets or live burial of prisoners, it was the intentional STARVATION of those that were not fit for hard labor. Gas chambers were a minor element and those that actually were in operation were for the weak the sick the old and the very young. And despite some small usage of agents like Zyklon B the majority of those that were gassed were done in by carbon monoxide generated by internal combustion engines. Zyklon B would be humane by comparison but Carbon Monoxide is so much less expensive and easier to handle. Think Efficiency!!!

The bottom line is that Germans saw the prisoners as a slave labor resources and did not want to waste resources on killing them when wearing them out like worker ants via starvation and hard labor worked so well.


Despite the fact that millions of 'undesirables' did perish in Nazi concentration camps the notion that millions of Jews perished in gas chambers is absurd (maybe 100 to 200 thousand tops). Hans Kammler and Albert Speer would never have allowed such an extravagant waste of exploitable manpower. However the mode of extermination is completely unimportant that fact that occurred at all is.

[Buzz62]

Hey why did the main man civil engineer Hans Kammler redesign the crematoriums atl the major death camps to achieve a faster corpse disposal rate?

And with his slave labor program he had it figured out down to the last calorie how little a Jewish, Polish or Russian Slave could be fed and still give him a year of hard labor before Kicking-Off.

Buzz you do know of course that the main killer in the death camps was not the gas chambers bullets or live burial of prisoners, it was the intentional STARVATION of those that were not fit enough to work. Gas chambers were a minor element and those that actually were in operation were for the weak the sick the old and the very young. And despite some small usage of agents like Zyklon B the majority of those that were gassed were done in by carbon monoxide generated by internal combustion engines. Zyklon B would be humane by comparison but Carbon Monoxide is so much less expensive and easier to handle. Think Efficiency!!!

The bottom line is that Germans saw the prisoners as a slave labor resources and did not want to waste resources on killing them when wearing them out like worker ants via starvation and hard labor worked so well.


Despite the fact that millions of 'undesirables' did perish in concentration camps the notion that millions of Jews perished in gas chambers is absurd. Hans Kammler and Albert Speer would never have allowed such a waste of exploitable manpower.

No Xbow...I din't know this.
I've actually not really ever researched the subject much.
But I wanted to post this so I can be pointed in the right direction and discuss this intelligently with my wife...who has a mind like a steal trap and always believes she's right.
Thanks man...good points.

[Xbow]

No Xbow...I din't know this.
I've actually not really ever researched the subject much.
But I wanted to post this so I can be pointed in the right direction and discuss this intelligently with my wife...who has a mind like a steal trap and always believes she's right.
Thanks man...good points.

Rest assured that the gas chambers in question not one of them would be useful for mass extermination. These were reportedly used for getting rid of unknown numbers of those that could not work in conjunction with tests on healthy subjects with experimental nerve agents such as Sarin, Tabun, Cyclosarin, Soman, VX etc. The myth of millions of Jews being gassed is just that a myth and an exaggeration on the part of the Zionists for their own propaganda purposes. I guess being exterminated by exotic chemical agents makes better news stories than being starved and worked to death..it certainly sounds nastier and more callous.

propaganda is always there to shape opinions. Here is a bit of relatively recent propaganda. The 1990 Nayirah Testimony. A girl named Nayirah said that she had witnessed Iraqi soldiers taking babies out of incubators in a Kuwaiti hospital drop them on the ground and take the incubators and send them to Iraq. Video Unfortunately Nayirah was a little actress and bought and paid for by Citizens for a Free Kuwait (an appendage of the Kuwaiti Embassy) and her testimony was completely FALSE.

Indeed, I think a good place to start a search for the main killing fields in WW-2 Germany is with the Nazi Slave labor program here is a short film Starring Albert Speer: Reich Minister For War Production and Fritz Sauckel: General Plenipotentiary for Labour Deployment
Nuremberg Day 18 Forced Labor
[youtube]MeAP53lXAxw[/youtube]
Hans Kammler isn't mentioned in this one but he used huge numbers of expendable slaves gathered from the Mittelbau-Dora Concentration camps to excavate, build and operate in the massive Nordhausen Mittelwerk underground aircraft and rocket factories. And that is just one facility there were hundreds. And our Pal SS Major Wherner Von Braun was into that shit knee deep.

Us good guys in the USA even collaborated with Dr Shiro Ishii of Unit 731 fame and protected him and his crew from prosecution in return for his human experimentation data. WOW!!!
Shiro Ishii and Unit 731 ◄(great film)
[youtube]IgtIyNRv3g8[/youtube]
The Jews are not the only folks that were force fed a shit sandwich in the 20th century. The genocide death toll for that century is > than 100,000,000. About 1,000,000/year from 1900 to 2000 but all you hear about is German gas chambers and concentration camps.

[Wrath_014]

http://www.yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/Micro ... 206234.pdf

Method of mass murder used by the Nazis.

The Nazis first began using poison gas as a means for mass murder in
December 1939, when an SS Sonderkommando unit used carbon monoxide
to suffocate Polish mental patients. One month later, the head of the
Euthanasia Program decided to use carbon monoxide to kill the handicapped,
chronically ill, aged, and others who had been put in his charge. By August
1941 approximately 70 000 Germans had been murdered in five euthanasia
centers, which were equipped either with stationary gas chambers or with
mobile gas vans.

In the summer of 1941, the Germans commenced murdering Jews en masse
in a systematic fashion. After several months, it became clear to them that the
mass murder method they had previously employed, of shooting, was neither
quick nor efficient enough to serve their needs. Thus, based on the
experience gained in the Euthanasia Program, they began using gas
chambers to annihilate European Jewry.
In December 1941, the SS inaugurated the large-scale use of gas vans at
the Chelmno extermination camp. These worked by piping exhaust fumes into
the enclosed vehicle through a special tube. 40 - 60 victims were jammed into
the van at a time, and after several minutes, they were suffocated. However,
this method was insufficient for the millions of Jews that the Nazis intended to
kill. Therefore in 1942, as part of Aktion Reinhard, ( the program to
exterminate Jews in the Generalgouvernement) — they built three
extermination camps equipped with large, stationary gas chambers. Belzec,
which commenced operation in March, had three gas chambers located in a
wooden barrack; Sobibor, where the killings began in May, housed its gas
chambers in a brick building and Treblinka, which was established in July, had
three gas chambers that could be hermetically sealed. At each of the three
camps, hundreds of thousands of Jews were murdered by exhaust gas from
diesel engines. During the summer and fall of 1942 the Nazis enlarged the
existing gas chambers and added new ones.

When transports arrived at Sobibor, Treblinka, and Belzec, a few of the
victims were chosen to join Sonderkommando units, while a few others with
various skills were selected to work in repair shops which served the camp
staff. The rest of the victims were sent on an assembly line, where they were
stripped of their possessions and clothing and their hair was cut. They were
then pushed into the gas chambers with their arms raised so the maximum
number of people could be jammed in. Babies and young children were
thrown in on top of the crowd. After the victims had been gassed and killed,
the Sonderkommando men would remove the bodies from the chamber and
bury them.
The Nazis continued to search for a more efficient method of mass murder.
After some experimentation on Soviet prisoners of war, the Nazis found a
commercial insecticide called Zyklon B to be an appropriate gas for their
needs. Zyklon B, a form of hydrogen cyanide, was put to use in the
extermination center at Auschwitz. Over its four years of existence, more than
one million people were gassed to death there. (Auschwitz alone !) However, the Nazis were not
satisfied with the rate of extermination. During the summer of 1942 plans were
made to build newer, more efficient gas chambers and crematoria ovens to
dispose of the corpses. The project was completed under the direction of the
company JA Topf und Soehne, by the spring of 1943, allowing Auschwitz to
become the Nazis' main killing center.
Some of the Nazis' other camps also contained gas chambers, but they were
not used on a regular basis for mass extermination. Gas chambers functioned
at Mauthausen, Neuengamme, Sachsenhausen, Stutthof, and Ravensbrueck.
All of these gas chambers utilized Zyklon B to kill their victims.

As though I like reading your posts Xbow, on this subject you're quite wrong, my friend.

[Xbow]

As though I like reading your posts Xbow, on this subject you're quite wrong, my friend.

Well bro, I never said the Nazis didn't use gas/Carbon Monoxide to exterminate Jews but 100,000 to 200,000 seems to be the figure. Although I've seen figures as high as 300,000 to 400,000 (Those are very possible too). But its not like starvation, exposure and slave labor is a better way to be murdered (actually its probably a worse way to go). And its not like those extermination methods give the Germans any reason to feel better about their history. Regardless of the methodology of slaughter the holocaust happened on the massive scale that is generally accepted. And one of the more evil methods the German's used was to take the too sick and weak to work out of their prison Barracks and shove them into a mass grave alive. Those that tried to climb out were either shot or clubbed to death with rifle butts and then the pit was covered over with dirt. And in my view that is exactly what the Arabs would like to do with every Israeli Jew. I would rather see Israel Nuke the whole region than allow that to happen again.

I suggest that those that deny the holocaust take a trip to the Simon Wiesenthal Center at 1399 Roxbury Dr Los Angeles, CA 90035.

[Buzz62]

OK cool.
So what this essentially looks like to me is, the Holocaust Deniers using the overly-stated propaganda of the Zionists...against them.
Interesting...I have to wonder...WHY would they lie so much?
I mean...gassing is a bad way to "kick the bucket" for sure...but hell, dead is dead.

[Xbow]

OK cool.
So what this essentially looks like to me is, the Holocaust Deniers using the overly-stated propaganda of the Zionists...against them.
Interesting...I have to wonder...WHY would they lie so much?
I mean...gassing is a bad way to "kick the bucket" for sure...but hell, dead is dead.

I'm not sure the prisoners were intentionally lying but the Zionists are focusing on the gas chambers because of their horrific nature. Undoubtedly thousands and thousands of Jews were gassed in a good number of camps and this of course was known to the other prisoners. Obviously this horrific means of death caused panic that led to fear based exaggerations on the part of the prisoners. Until the primary means of extermination was the gas chamber and that is false. Starvation, exposure and disease were by far the main killers.

For instance when a few hundred or a thousand prisoners were hauled away from a camp en masse to do slave labor on German fortifications, tank ditches, building dragons teeth barriers etc etc etc they were never seen again. The work was done outdoors at anytime of year with no: proper clothing, cover, beds, blankets (they slept on the dirt, mud or snow), medical care and were fed an inadequate metabolic subsistence diet (~600 calories). In the minds of the prisoners inside the camp from where these unfortunates were taken they had been taken away to be gassed. Most of the tales of mass gassing were the anecdotal tales of terrified prisoners.

If the Nazis had the ability to gas 5,000 Jewish prisoners a day it would have taken 200 days to kill one million and 1200 days to kill six million. That is not what happened; actually something worse happened.

[Buzz62]

OK...so the evil gas chamber deaths is GROSSLY overestimated for "theatrical" purposes.
Rather...typical actually...

Now lets discuss this:

- According to "eyewitnesses" there were only 4 Germans monitoring the process and about 100 Jews doing the dirty work. There were 2,000 people about to be killed and thousands more in the living quarters. The "death center" wasn't fenced around, it was open and in direct sight of people in the living quarters. Don't you think they would have rebelled against 4 puny guards?

4 Guards?
This is a bit hard to believe but...if these "eyewitnesses" are correct...how the fuck does that work?

[Rich]

The Jews are not the only folks that were force fed a shit sandwich in the 20th century. The genocide death toll for that century is > than 100,000,000. About 1,000,000/year from 1900 to 2000 but all you hear about is German gas chambers and concentration camps.

Well tens of thousands of Jews escaped the Jewish holocaust and took refuge in Japanese occupied Manchuria or in China that came under the control of Japan. Japan also gave early diplomatic support to the Zionists as well as giving Israel early full diplomatic recognition. The Nazis on the other hand played a key part in protecting two hundred thousand Chinese who took refuge in the safety zone during the rape of Nanking. I think some people might feel that too much emphasis on Japanese crimes could lead to a confusion of narrative.

[starman2003]

4 Guards?
This is a bit hard to believe but...if these "eyewitnesses" are correct...how the fuck does that work?

Besides being armed, presumably, they must have had backup. But there were mass escapes in the summer of '43.

[Buzz62]

Mass escapes?

Ya know people...I am beginning to have this sinking feeling that perhaps the "6,000,000" number is also rather grossly over-estimated...