[CasX]

Interesting article from William Blum, with sources down the botton:

http://members.aol.com/bblum6/abomb.htm

[S. P. Laroche]

Bloody cold of the Yanks to bomb an alreadly defeated enemy, which was trying desperatly to sue for peace, for it knew it was beaten, just to send a message to Moscow. The troubling part is the message Moscow recieved was entirely different from what the US intended. The US wanted Moscow to cower before their new toy, to be good little Russians, and not cause any trouble. The message Moscow recieved was that they needed weapons akin to the new American ones to defend against them. Led to a sort of "Out of the frying pan, into the fire" situation, as once it started, there was no turning back. The bomb should have been abandoned after German capitulation. At least that way we could of staved off this current world of nuclear threats for a few more generations.

[Freedom]

I think they should apologize for it. But i still here plenty arguing that it was needed to defeat the Japaneese as only a total surrender was acceptable to America, and anyother terms other than a humiliating defeat and a complete giving in would've lead America to contiueing the war anyway. They should apologies and let us move on from the whole period. Russia and America have plenty to say sorry about for the cold war still.

[Boondock Saint]

Had this debate time and time again.

Lets face one fact ... 'The' bomb would have been used by someone sometime. The fact that 'the bomb' was dropped during the largest war the world has ever seen and that 'the bomb' (atually 2) that was dropped was nothing compared to 'the bombs' that the USSR and USA developed later on is a blessing for the world.

That nukes shocked the world the way that they did when only two workable nukes existed as opposed to nukes being used en mass when they were hundreds of times more powerful imo lead to the non-use of nukes since WWII.

I would also put a cold hearted bit into it ... better you than me. Let's face it, nukes were gonna be used ... I have no problem sleeping at night that they were used in anger against one of the most brutal empires the earth has ever seen.

[Siberian Fox]

The most ironic thing about the original A-bomb dropped on Hiroshima is that it was made using captured German Uranium.

Towards the end of the war Germany realised it was going to lose and so sent U-234 to sail for Japan with 500kg of Uranium Oxide on board to help the Japanese build the bomb first. However, Germany surrended shortly thereafter, and U-234 surfaced an surrendered to the Americans (it was the last German submarine to surrender in WWII).

As soon as the Americans realised what was on board they had the lot shipped straight to the Manhatten project who were desperate for as much Uranium as they could get thier hands on. Although the German material wasn't enough to make a bomb on it's own, it went in with the American material and was delivered to Japan by air instead of ship later that year.

[Yeddi]

Wow... where did you get that infomation Fox? I'd be interested in reading up on it.

[Siberian Fox]

It was only the Discovery channel, but a search on the submarine's history might bring up something.

[S. P. Laroche]

The Discovery Channel is so cool.

[Demosthenes]

I don't wanna debate this either, William Blum can spin it any way he wants but the bomb was more humane than the firebombing of Tokoyo and the other Japanese cities, I notice Blum, the master of statistics credits the bomb with several hundred thousand casualities, the figure I saw put it nearer to about 120 thousand, while the firebombing of Tokoyo killed about 240 thousand. Of course I'm trying to pull those up from memory so I could be inaccurate here but as I reacall the firebombing was at least twice as devestating.

I, too have heard far more convincing evidense elsewhere that although we knew the Japanese were defeated the minute we won the battle midway (wasn't it?) the Japanese weren't going down so easily. It seems very easy for William Blum to revise everything all the time because he's a disgruntled, fossilized, Vietnam protester who's way outlived relevance. However, even if all he says is true their are still benefits that wouldn't have occurred if not for the symbology of the bomb.

Blum, as usual attributes all this to Americas secret need to be evil. "We discovered the bomb and now must drop it" , is his point. I find this lacking in true strategic thought for the long term. 1st) A completely defeated Japan with no rebels, geurillas, or insurgents meant a compliant Japan. Lack of unconditional surrender meant Japan could keep their military. 2) This unconditional surrender of Japan has in turn allowed us to become close allies and certainly the Japanese have proven time and again that they are reliable allies in all our endeavors. We're now proud to have them, and we should be. 3) We were fearful of Soviet expansion into Western Europe. We had just finished fighting a 2nd war in Europe, we were not interested in a 3rd any time soon. So certainly in that context it was acceptable to "send Stalin a message" I know many here are Stalinists and will either claim the Soviets were protecting Eastern Europe from us or that They feared us more, whatever... That is irrelevant to why WE dropped the bomb. We wanted to be done with European wars. The bomb helped acheive that(at least in large scale)

Do I like the bomb "figuratively"? No of course not no one does. Do I wish we wouldn't have felt the need to drop it? Yes, of course. Is it all that fair of William Blum to continue to fan the flames of anti-americanism by stating that this, too was just another evil act by the evil ole' United States...I don't think so. Blum seems to be the holiest of holies for anti-US liberals and foreigners of all colors, I'm not impressed he should go back to the sixties, do a little acid and chill out man!

[S. P. Laroche]

Don't forget that the original target for the second bomb was Tokyo, but due to bad weather, they bombed Nagasaki instead.

[CasX]

Don't forget that the original target for the second bomb was Tokyo, but due to bad weather, they bombed Nagasaki instead.

Really? I didn't know that

As Demosthenes said, there were possibly many worse 'disasters'. For instance, the Allies made the decision to deliberatly target civilians in Germany, and incinerated 600,000 people. - from The Colour of War

- I've seen different numbers for those killed by the bombs. Maybe Blum is counting those affected by the radiation in cancers and deformities? I don't know.

Blum seems to be the holiest of holies for anti-US liberals and foreigners of all colors

Well there's certainly no shortage, like terrorists.

Makes you wonder why. There will always be those who disagree, but the scale with which the world and the US tend to disagree is immense. I had a good story somewhere about these Kiwis that tried to make it to every nation on earth in the shortest time, just before the latest war on Iraq. They said that they were blown away by the global opposition to the war. Anyway, that's a different topic.

[Efrem Da King]

Dropping the bomb saved hundreds of thousands of lives and the destruction of the entirety of japan, that would have occured in and invasion was launched. And going by that I say it was good. It cut short and horrible war. Look up on the battles iwo jima or okwinowa if you want to know approx what it would have been like only FAR FAR worse.

[Demosthenes]

Makes you wonder why. There will always be those who disagree, but the scale with which the world and the US tend to disagree is immense. I had a good story somewhere about these Kiwis that tried to make it to every nation on earth in the shortest time, just before the latest war on Iraq. They said that they were blown away by the global opposition to the war. Anyway, that's a different topic

Yah and I bet if you polled little kids on how much they like vegetables most would say not at all. "Even though they are really good for you?" you might ask as a follow up question. They would all just ignore that and say they taste like shit. Does that mean you give up on making your kids eat vegetables? No you just deal with the fact that they don't like them and serve up vegetables whenever its time for the family to eat nutricious meals.

[CasX]

Irrelevant point, but your arrogance amazes me.

Little kids don't seem to be the most rational thinkers, so your point appears non-existant.

I think that the point you are trying to make is that you think what the US is doing is right, and therefore it must continue on it's course, even though the US is generally opposed internationally.

Most countries have a process whereby the decisions their government makes are, to a greater or lesser extent, debated and thought out.

The only reason I can think of for your opinion that the US must export war, globalise slave-wage labour, and ignore international bodies like the UN, is arrogance.

There appears to be no shortage of that in the Republican party.

[Kov]

"It was only the Discovery channel, but a search on the submarine's history might bring up something." Fox

"The Discovery Channel is so cool." Yeddi




Sorry, I thought I should point something out...

Also, did anyone here hear about the "third" atomic bomb? And how it is rumored to have been lost? I belive the story goes that the plane was going to Tokyo, but was shot down or was lost in bad weather.

[The One.]

Since the situation is clearly recognized to be hopeless, large sections of the Japanese armed forces would not regard with disfavor an American request for capitulation even if the terms were hard.{7}

I seriously doubt that.
Japenese were dedicated to the emperor.Even after the official capitulation by japan there was a lot of pockets of resistance and most japenese coudn't believe in their nation's capitalution.In fact,they had to place speakers in the jungle and broadcast the official capitulation message so remaining forces would surrender.

. By 1945, Japan's entire military and industrial
machine was grinding to a halt as the resources needed to wage
war were all but eradicated. The navy and air force had been
destroyed ship by ship, plane by plane, with no possibility of
replacement. When, in the spring of 1945, the island nation's
lifeline to oil was severed, the war was over except for the
fighting. By June, Gen. Curtis LeMay, in charge of the air
attacks, was complaining that after months of terrible
firebombing, there was nothing left of Japanese cities for his
bombers but "garbage can targets". By July, U.S. planes could
fly over Japan without resistance and bomb as much and as long as
they pleased. Japan could no longer defend itself.{6}

.Until the end of the war,Japan sent waves of kamikaze planes on US ships.They even designed unarmed special rocket-like planes filled with TNT specially designed as kamiakaze planes.About 500 were found in a hangar after the war.

[Comrade Ogilvy]

It is interesting to note that during the "Rape of Nanking" more people were killed in a seven week period than in the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined. These deaths were not in a bombing, or fires caused from it or nuclear fall-out, they were caused by systematic rape-murder, torture and executions carried out by Japanese soldiers because they were told to "make an example" of the Chinese. The Commanders that were responsible for the ordering of this "example" are enshrined in Japan and thought of as heroes. Japanese schools do not teach (as far as I know) much or anything about the Rape of Nanking- They have also never apoligized for it nor plan to to my knowledge.

You have to look at the mentality of the Japanese soldiers and the Japanese people themselves. These were people that would most likely never give up unless something very drastic happened. That "something drastic" were the atomic bombs.

[S. P. Laroche]

It is interesting to note that during the "Rape of Nanking" more people were killed in a seven week period than in the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined. These deaths were not in a bombing, or fires caused from it or nuclear fall-out, they were caused by systematic rape-murder, torture and executions carried out by Japanese soldiers because they were told to "make an example" of the Chinese. The Commanders that were responsible for the ordering of this "example" are enshrined in Japan and thought of as heroes. Japanese schools do not teach (as far as I know) much or anything about the Rape of Nanking- They have also never apoligized for it nor plan to to my knowledge.

So, your saying that it was justifiable to drop the bomb because the Japanese commited atrocities?
Well by that logic, we should be dropping bombs left, right, and center. Every country, at one time or another, has commited some heinous act, most of which have not been apologized for. To say that the Japanese deserved such treatment because of what they had done is to say that we all deserve such treatment.

[Comrade Ogilvy]

I think its a good point though, its not easy to understand their mentality at the time. The civilians were so brainwashed by propoganda, some would commit suicide before having to come face to face with an allied soldier, for fear of the horrible things he would do to them. The Japanese did commit some of the worst atrousities of the war, consider they treatment of pow's.

[Freedom]

So, your saying that it was justifiable to drop the bomb because the Japanese commited atrocities?
Well by that logic, we should be dropping bombs left, right, and centre. Every country, at one time or another, has commited some heinous act, most of which have not been apologized for. To say that the Japanese deserved such treatment because of what they had done is to say that we all deserve such treatment

I certainly dont like that a Nuclear bomb was dropped on anyone. But as Rickshaw says, you have to take into account the attidude of the the opposing army and the populace, when calculating the neccessary force. I think it is naive to suggest that the Japanese would have unconditionally surrendered without an event like the dropping of the bomb. As a supporter of Human Rights, the total disregard shown for the civilian populace was gross, but do i think the defeat of the Japanese Imperial Army and the ending of the war in the Pacific was a good thing? absolutely. Anything other than forcing the complete surrender of the Japanese Imperial Army would've been immoral and moronic. Case in point is the 1991 gulf war. The war in the Pacific was a horrid dirty affair. Sending troops out to die their, when a quicker solution was availible, is tactically moronic.

Since the situation is clearly recognized to be hopeless, large sections of the Japanese armed forces would not regard with disfavor an American request for capitulation even if the terms were hard.

The Japanese soliders would sooner commit suicide than be captured or capitulate. The Japanese army organised mass "suicides" of civilians before the Americans entered various Japanese held territories. The Japanese simply would not have surrendered. At least no unconditionally, which was the only surrender acceptable.

For instance, the Allies made the decision to deliberatly target civilians in Germany, and incinerated 600,000 people. - from The Colour of War

Really? did civilians die in WW2? I would never have known...Yeah Hitler carefully and precisionally placed every single german bomb on specific military targets.

If the Allies had of taken the time, money and effort to be pinpoint accurate with every bomb they dropped(way back then when weaponary was so crude and inaccurate anyway)...well...lets just say that you better hope you fit the bill for the Aryan race.

The pros of and allied victory, whatever may have happened to get it, are certainly greater than the cons. Both believers in Democracy and Communism will tell you this: Nazism was evil.

Bloody cold of the Yanks to bomb an alreadly defeated enemy, which was trying desperatly to sue for peace

Really did the Japanese want peace? awww they are warm and fuzzy aint they? Those lovely stand up, anti Americans. The brilliant, superbly super, positively lovely Japanese army, why if they wanted peace we should just give it to 'em. Who cares if they killed a few million. They were really stand up guys looking for peace.
They werent looking for no peace in 1937 and they werent looking for no peace at Pearl Harbour. They struck the first blow, then realised hey wait a minute, we are getting are asses kicked, maybe is we say sorry everything will okay. Then the allies wouldve said "yeah you only tried to take over half of the world and killed countless millions, declared war on us, alligned with Hitler and massacred our POWS but all is forgiven if you want peace".

Dont bore me to death with this nazi sympathizing bullshit. WW2 is the single most justifyable war of the last century, wether we alligned with Stalin or not. Whether we dropped the Bomb on those peace loving Japs, whether firebombed Dresden or not. In the grand scheme of things, the ultimate defeat of Nazism, was the single greatest achievement of the last century.

Its also funny how these people, who often say America is wrong to be friendly with numerous Dictators, turn around and suggest doing the exact same. Its really quite funny.