Without The Holocaust - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

Wandering the information superhighway, he came upon the last refuge of civilization, PoFo, the only forum on the internet ...

The Second World War (1939-1945).
Forum rules: No one line posts please.
By Dempsey
#1725765
Russian_Guy

Russia wasn't a kind place for Jews beforehand.


It wasn't kind place for no one. But there were no pogroms (I hope you don't mix Czarist Russia with Soviet Russia). And there were laws against anti-semitism.
User avatar
By Oxymoron
#1725895
If Germany did no wage a war against the Jews they would have probably developed the A Bomb first there by securing the thousand year riech.
User avatar
By Thunderhawk
#1725902
If Germany did no wage a war against the Jews they would have probably developed the A Bomb first there by securing the thousand year riech.

Didnt Einstein, Szilárd, Oppenheimer leave Germany several years before the anti-semitism became severe? - back when it was mildly bad (the European ~norm) ?
Fermi left Europe because his wife was Jewish.

Not only would the holocaust need to have been avoided, all the anti-semitism would had to have been avoided. But then, who could German people blame and in their hatred be (partly) united and led by the NSDAP?
User avatar
By R_G
#1726452
I'm sure there were other Jewish scientists who could have helped.

The Nazis could have still employed a policy of anti-semitism but draw favoritism to some Jews.

Again, many countries with racist theory did the same.
User avatar
By Thoss
#1729761
If Germany did no wage a war against the Jews they would have probably developed the A Bomb first there by securing the thousand year riech.


I wouldn't call it so much a 'war' as 'industrial slaughter'.

Thunderhawk aptly underscores the main problem(s) with this 'what-if' question of the War without the Holocaust. The Jews of Europe left that continent for the discomfort of the standard antisemitism of Europe. So even if the Nazis were not rounding up Jews (and other minorities in the millions) and destroying them, it difficult to say that none would have left and all (scientists, engineers, etc) would have complied with a totalitarian Nazi State. Secondly, removing the virile antisemitism of the Nazi 'platform' would be voiding a mainmast of their party, thus undercutting their efforts to gain power.

The Germans developing atomic weapons with the help of the Jewish scientific community is dubious in itself. To be sure, it is also problematic since the Germans were under siege at almost every crucial juncture in the war on most fronts, particularly in the air, making it quite difficult to manage the all the processes, collect the already limited resources, and construct the then most complex weapon in history. Even under ideal, peaceful conditions in Nevada, the Americans took some four years to get it right.

Another reason one could doubt that the Nazis could build atomic weapons during war time was the simple problems of the Nazi state. Despite the myths of 'German ruthless efficiency', the Nazi war and peacetime state was an unwieldy and poorly run. In fact, it was more akin to a collection of power centers (though all loyal to Hitler) that competed viciously for more power. Had atomic weapons become more of a real possibility for the Germans, this new scientific power would have been a seen as the crown jewel of high level Nazis, such as Goering, Goebbels, Himmler, and so on. The result would have been infighting and personal (and perhaps real) sabotage to gain this new power. Hitler was notoriously aloof (often encouraging these intra-Nazi Party Struggles) and would probably not settled this sort of dispute. The result would have been even more delays to a German atomic program, and (assuming the Germans are still at war with the Russians and the Allies) time would have likely run out on the German Atomic program, as it did in real life.

Finally, I doubt that an Atomic Bomb, and the possession of the atomic bomb would guarantee the Third Reich one thousand years of existence. The Soviet Union, by the mid 1970s, had more nuclear tipped ICBMs then any nation on earth, perhaps the most powerful force in human history. This force did nothing to save the Soviet Union in the 1990s. In fact, it probably considerably helped the process of the Soviet Union's demise.

Anyway, Nazi Germany may have been able to buy itself time with atomic weapons, perhaps even force peace with the West and hold the Soviets back at the Elbe. But, by 1944-45-46, if the Germans were able to develop a bomb by that time, a time when the Luftwaffe was but a minuscule shadow of the force that battled the RAF and mauled the Red Air force, and when the Allied and Soviet Air forces have complete air-supremacy, it would have been extremely difficult for the Germans to deliver a bomb to London, and nearly impossible to Moscow. Pairs maybe.

One may contend that the Germans might have used the V2 as the delivery vehicle. But by 1945, (the earliest at which I think the Germans could have anything to show for their atomic program) V2 launch sites were being bombed or captured by the Allies.

In short, I'm not so sure the Germans could have developed a bombed, even with the help of the Jewish scientific community, in time to save their regime. And even if they did, I'm skeptical if they could have delivered it in time by the waning years of the war.
User avatar
By R_G
#1729827
I made a thread about the V1 and V2 projects.

The German plans ranged all the way to V6.

Hitler could have had the V2 by 1943, but at the time of the proposal in 1940 he was winning the war and it seemed unnecessary of a cost.
User avatar
By Thunderhawk
#1730304
The V2s didnt need very special launch sites. What they needed was a flat and stable area (usually paved) and reasonably close as they had limited range.

However, they only had about a thousand kg war head. Little boy and fat man weighted 4000-5000 kgs.
The V2 would not have been able to carry even a low yield nuclear warhead. There were appropriate material in germany for the bomb (I believe E.Germany was a Uranium source for the USSR) but refining it and making enough would take time and effort Germany didn't want/have to spare and it would be a giant "hit me" sign.
User avatar
By Erebus
#1771806
I'm sure there were other Jewish scientists who could have helped.


And done what?
User avatar
By filerba
#1815458
I do not believe Germany had the industrial power to refine significant quantities of uranium. And atomic bombs are not superweapons that automatically win wars. Remember that defeat was already inevitable for Japan when they were bombed. Even if Germany had managed to build and deliver a few atomic bombs, the Allies would just have attacked faster and firebombed all of Germany's cities. If this all happened because there was no Holocaust, the Nazis would instead be the worst criminals in history for the destruction of Leningrad and London.

How many fission bombs does it take to destroy London anyways?
User avatar
By Thunderhawk
#1815503
The Americans had to ramp up production of uranium and plutonium for their bombs, and even then they were worred that Japanese might call their "bluff" - that they didnt have more then two bombs. Thats only partly true as the Americans were gearing up production and could start pumping out 1-2 a month (disputed) - but the Americans could peacefully pour huge resources and manpower into it.

Could the Germans have dirrected enough man power and time to produce more then one or two bombs, before the facilities were attacked?

Furthermore, though people could (and initially did) view the nukes as simply large bombs, hitting a city caused a huge amount of civilian casualties. Would nuking London, Leningrad or Moscow open up the flood gates for the allies to respond with gas attacks on German cities?
User avatar
By Truth-a-naut
#1815671
If Germany did no wage a war against the Jews they would have probably developed the A Bomb first there by securing the thousand year riech.


About the nuke issue first. I believe Germany was primarily looking into fission as means to power it's factories as opposed to weaponizing it (well at least in the beginning). I read this somewhere... sadly I can't cite it, but I do believe it was in either "Hitler and his Generals" or "Hitler's Table Talk" (both of which where just transcribed conversations).

As for the original question...

If you remove the genocide and all of it's subsidiaries you really elimate the Nazis themselves. The Nazis wanted to expand and settle the East - those living there would have still been murdered and enslaved. This was official policy of the Third Reich and the NSDAP itself.

The question should have been phrased as "If the Nazis weren't Nazis..."

an era when Europeans were more educated and inte[…]

I was quite explicit that the words are not by the[…]

Left vs right, masculine vs feminine

We were once wild before wheat and other grains do[…]

Israel-Palestinian War 2023

The Israeli government could have simply told UNRW[…]