Should Sweden have joined WWI? - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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The First World War (1914-1918).
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By Dave
#1762047
Sweden is a sad parody of a society today. The country should've accepted the Reichenau note and gone to war in 1914.
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By Propaganda
#1762073
Dave wrote:Evolve my ass. Sweden is a sad parody of a society today. The country should've accepted the Reichenau note and gone to war in 1914.


I agree that Sweden today isn't all it should be today, but probably for different reasons than you... Why in the world should we have gone to war in 1914?? A war of pride that took the life of 16 million people instantly, and 50 million more because of The Spanish Disease - and on the German side non the less? Even though Sweden wasn't a modern democracy at the time, and the upper class and royal family mostly likely wanted to join the war, there were traditions to uphold and a strong belif in the virtues of peace amongst the Swedish people. A belif that still is strong, although on the decline, in Sweden today. Sadly we really can't be considered neutral today, after joining the EU. but atleast we have our own currency still.
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By Oxymoron
#1762279
A war of pride


Propaganda you make it seem as though Pride is a negative trait.



We continued evolving, into better men


Evidence that you have evolved, or that your idealogy makes you a better men. What is your definition of a better man?

, unlike some apparently...


I believe in Darwins theory, evolution doesnt happen in a century.


Peace be with you!


Live long a Prosper.
User avatar
By Dave
#1762292
Propaganda wrote:I agree that Sweden today isn't all it should be today, but probably for different reasons than you... Why in the world should we have gone to war in 1914?? A war of pride that took the life of 16 million people instantly, and 50 million more because of The Spanish Disease - and on the German side non the less? Even though Sweden wasn't a modern democracy at the time, and the upper class and royal family mostly likely wanted to join the war, there were traditions to uphold and a strong belif in the virtues of peace amongst the Swedish people. A belif that still is strong, although on the decline, in Sweden today. Sadly we really can't be considered neutral today, after joining the EU. but atleast we have our own currency still.

Which traditions exactly? Sweden had been part of the Holy Alliance after the Napoleonic Wars, and it committed troops to assist Denmark over the Schleswig issue in 1852. It was again going to commit troops in 1864 but at the last moment pulled out. The defense policies pursued by Karl Staaf's government were sufficiently unpopular that the public by themselves raised the funds for the construction of the HMS Sverige, which Staaf had been opposed to. In 1914 farmers converged on Stockholm to protest against the government's overly peaceful defense policy, and large sections of the public wanted more action on the Finnish issue.

As for why Sweden should've gone to war in 1914, we can look at in two ways. First, what was known by the Swedish government at that time, and second, what we know in hindsight.
At that time
  • Reichenau offered Finland to Sweden and postwar leadership of a Scandinavian union, a superb offer far better than what Germany offered to other prospective allies
  • Germany represented at that time conservative modernization, a middleground between the despotism in Russia and the dangerous liberalism in France and Britain. Siding with Germany would've strenghtened these forces in Sweden, mostly epitomized by Hjalmar Hammarskjold (the last prime minister without a party) and Arvid Taube.
  • The war offered an opportunity to rationalize the Swedish economy and accelerate industrialization with German assistance, which at that time (unlike today) was far more advanced than Germany.

In hindsight
  • Historically, the Central Powers very nearly won the war. Sweden's participation in the war would've diverted substantial Russian manpower and allowed the closing of The Sound to all Entente fleets in 1914. 30 German divisions would've been freed up and British naval assistance to Russia would've been reduced. It's quite possible that a Swedish entry in 1914, by producing more German successes and preventing Austro-Hungarian weakness, could even have prevented Italy and Romania from joining the war. At any rate, it's probable that an early Swedish entry would've tipped the balance in favor of the Central Powers.
  • It was difficult to tell at the time (although some forecasted it), but the defeat of the Central Powers set in motion in the spread of the twin plagues of parliamentarianism and liberalism all over Europe, which as we know are now devouring and destroying the entire continent and its civilization. With a Central Powers victory and Swedish participation, dangerous things like women's suffrage might never have been granted, and parliamentarianism could've been rolled back. The disease of social democracy could've been destroyed.
  • Based on the treaty imposed on Bulgaria, a minor Central Power, and given the non-existent territorial issues, had the Central Powers still lost Sweden likely would've lost little.
By Zerogouki
#1762307
The Central Powers would have lost either way. It would have taken longer with Sweden's assistance, but when five countries declare war on the entire rest of the world, the entire rest of the world isn't going to lose.

OTOH, if Sweden, Mexico, Ireland, Italy, and maybe a few other countries had all joined the CP, they really could have kicked some ass, although they would still have eventually succumbed to the industrial/economic powerhouse also known as the United States.
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By Dave
#1762346
Given that the Central Powers historically came close to actually winning the war, I find that unlikely. Sweden's participation could've resulted in any of the following scenarios:
  • Russia knocked out of the war in 1915, due to having 30 fewer divisions to face the Gorlice-Tarnow Offensive
  • Italy and Romania never join the war, or even join the Central Powers; this would have strongly shored up Austria-Hungary's position and weakened Russia's
  • A general German offensive on the Western Front in 1916 instead of the more limited Verdun Offensive (which none the less contributed to the later mutiny of the French Army)
  • No Brusilov Offensive in 1916, again keeping Austria-Hungary stronger
  • Possible diversion of British troops from the Middle East to the Western Front, allowing Ottoman Forces to tie down more Russian forces
  • Italy (assuming it even entered) knocked out of the war in 1917 by a much stronger Caporetto Offensive
  • Operation Michael taking place with more reserves, allowing it to overwhelm the allies

At any rate, Swedish participation would've definitely resulted in the following factors:
  • A weakening of Russia's lines and strategic position
  • A strengthening of Austria-Hungary's lines and strategic position
  • Freeing up substantial German manpower

The United States did not enter the war until 1917 and didn't have a meaningful number of forces on the Western Front until the spring of 1918. Sweden's participation would've seriously extended Russia's lines and freed up at least three times the German manpower that was used at the opening stages of Verdun.

I'm not sure what Mexico, which was in a state of civil war, would've earned the Central Powers (beyond guaranteed war with the United States), and Ireland wasn't even a country.
User avatar
By Dave
#1762354
Are you not familiar with the fact that Germany defeated Russia and that the Kaiserschlacht came dangerously close to overrunning the Western Front in 1918?
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By Doomhammer
#1762649
Sauce plz?

If Germany had more manpower and if Bulgaria hadn't collapsed so quickly and unexpectedly, then the Central Powers could have likely won.
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