Armenian Genocide (viewer discretion advised) - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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The First World War (1914-1918).
Forum rules: No one line posts please.
By Smilin' Dave
#13247425
The Armenians, on the other hand, did nothing to the Turks but try to secure their rights in an increasingly oppressive state.

So remaining subject to a Milosevic dominated Serbia (or enclaves loyal to his name/beliefs) would have been sunshine and rainbows for Croats and Muslims? Seems to me the the treatment of those who were left in Serb controlled territory suffered 'increasingly oppression'. Why was their resistance wrong, but that of Armenians right?
By Aekos
#13247489
So remaining subject to a Milosevic dominated Serbia (or enclaves loyal to his name/beliefs) would have been sunshine and rainbows for Croats and Muslims? Seems to me the the treatment of those who were left in Serb controlled territory suffered 'increasingly oppression'. Why was their resistance wrong, but that of Armenians right?


Nice circular logic. Remaining subject to a Croat-dominated Krajina wouldn't have been nice for Croatian Serbs (as pre-war actions and Operation Storm showed) and I honestly don't except how you'd expect Serbs to give up a historic region like Bosnia to Bosniaks and make it a Muslim-dominated state.
By Smilin' Dave
#13248410
Nice circular logic.

Do you actually know what circular logic is?

Remaining subject to a Croat-dominated Krajina wouldn't have been nice for Croatian Serbs (as pre-war actions and Operation Storm showed) and I honestly don't except how you'd expect Serbs to give up a historic region like Bosnia to Bosniaks and make it a Muslim-dominated state.

One could just as easily ask how Turks would fare under an Armenian dominated government (let's not forget there was a war on with Russia at this time, which is another risk), or how we couldn't expect the Turks to give up a historic region and make it a Christian dominated one.
By Aekos
#13248421
One could just as easily ask how Turks would fare under an Armenian dominated government (let's not forget there was a war on with Russia at this time, which is another risk), or how we couldn't expect the Turks to give up a historic region and make it a Christian dominated one.


Much of Armenia (I'm not talking about today's republic) had little significance for Turks. Almost no Turks lived there. I also highly doubt that the Armenians would have done anything similar. The Armenians were the most loyal nation of the Ottoman Empire before the events that led up to the dissolution. There might have been ethnic cleansing...but I'm not going to believe that Armenians would have carried out an absolutely barbaric campaign of genocide.
By Smilin' Dave
#13249497
Much of Armenia (I'm not talking about today's republic) had little significance for Turks. Almost no Turks lived there.

Perhaps, but wasn't there a sizeable Kurdish population in the region? This link suggests that Armenians constituted only a quarter of the population in Armenia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenians_ ... 53_to_1829

The Armenians were the most loyal nation of the Ottoman Empire before the events that led up to the dissolution.

It's not like insurrection/resistance was unknown in the Armenian areas however. As late as 1914 there were question marks about Armenian loyalty
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_c ... at_Erzurum

might have been ethnic cleansing...but I'm not going to believe that Armenians would have carried out an absolutely barbaric campaign of genocide.

What would be lost in ferocity should be offset by the fact that WWI was on and the Russians were entering Ottoman territory. The Turks faced threats on multiple fronts.

Can you see what I'm getting at now? We can make all the excuses/explanations we want, but in the end there was genocide and ethnic cleansing (which I'm pretty sure nothing that had taken place could justify). Dwelling on these excuses detracts from the crime that took place.
User avatar
By SecretSquirrel
#13285765
Aekos wrote:Why should the current generation of Armenians not have anger at the Turks? How should a Jew feel about a Holocaust-denying, nationalist, German?


I am an american immigrant jew who lost many family members to both hitler and stalin. I do not any some kind of personal antipathy towards modern day skinheads or stalinists who deny the respective massacres. Why should I if they are not responsible for them?
By Aekos
#13303512
I am an american immigrant jew who lost many family members to both hitler and stalin. I do not any some kind of personal antipathy towards modern day skinheads or stalinists who deny the respective massacres. Why should I if they are not responsible for them?


How would you feel if Germany officially denied the Holocaust and was active in trying to prevent other countries from recognizing it? If Germany had a blockade on Israel (geographically the analogy doesn't work but bear with me here) that destroyed the Israeli economy and caused a "white genocide" in which nearly half the population emigrated?
User avatar
By Doomhammer
#13304330
If Germany had a blockade on Israel (geographically the analogy doesn't work but bear with me here) that destroyed the Israeli economy and caused a "white genocide" in which nearly half the population emigrated?

Aekos, yours is a futile occupation. Turkey has closed off its borders to Armenia because Armenia won't recognize them (the borders). The solution to this problem lies with getting along with its neighbors. Perhaps if Armenia ceased being the spoiled child of the West and did something about its economy rather than lobbying against Turkey and Azerbaijan, then it could achieve something, for example, its neighbors could trust Armenia with hosting a gas or oil pipeline, thereby earning Armenia some transit fees. For the record, flights are available from Armenia to various Turkish cities like Istanbul (and vice versa) - so they still have access to the civilized world and can still conduct trade.
By Smilin' Dave
#13305213
Turkey has closed off its borders to Armenia because Armenia won't recognize them (the borders).

This fails to explain why the Turkish government blocked energy supplies to Armenia. Armenia's resulting energy crisis was so severe they had to bring an earthquake damaged reactor complex back online, much to the displeasure of the 'West'.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metsamor_N ... ower_Plant

Would I also be mistaken in saying a significant minority of Turks thought Turkey should intervene on the side of Azerbaijan during the Nagorno-Karabakh war?
User avatar
By Doomhammer
#13305305
Would I also be mistaken in saying a significant minority of Turks thought Turkey should intervene on the side of Azerbaijan during the Nagorno-Karabakh war?

You would be correct.

This fails to explain why the Turkish government blocked energy supplies to Armenia.

On the other hand, Turkey has also invited Armenia to take part in the Black Sea Economic Cooperation - which Armenia is now a member of. Turkey's policies are somewhat inconsistent.
By Aekos
#13306087
. Turkey has closed off its borders to Armenia because Armenia won't recognize them (the borders). The solution to this problem lies with getting along with its neighbors. Perhaps if Armenia ceased being the spoiled child of the West...


Armenia as an entity is lucky to exist, had the Turks been able to finish what they started (and they did push into Eastern Armenia, i.e. modern Armenia) there would be no Armenian state and hardly any Armenians today. I think that Armenian concerns about the validity of the borders are legitimate.
By Smilin' Dave
#13306134
On the other hand, Turkey has also invited Armenia to take part in the Black Sea Economic Cooperation - which Armenia is now a member of. Turkey's policies are somewhat inconsistent.

One represents definate action, the other one represents a set of principles (and I gather the Charter didn't go official till 1999)... while the pairing is odd, it suggests that Turkey is more inclined to be harsh with Armenia than open handed in practice.
By Atilla88
#13374751
For the record, this is one of many photographs of Muslim civilians who were murdered by armed Armenian militias which Armenian nationalists have taken from the Turkish/Ottoman military archives and attempted to pass as Armenian victims of Turkish militias.

Image

Here is the
original photo
By Ozzy
#13419262
Thanks Attilla, I was going to point that too. I mean Armenians used so many faked documents in the past... Anyway, so let's ask the orginal poster, are you proud of those photos?
By Ozzy
#13420557
@Smilin' Dave: If I may, i want to quote an historian to express my feelings.

... That is an historical error and a wrong that perpetuates the ethnic hatred that caused the disaster of the Armenians, as well as the disaster of the Turks. The events of World War I should be honored and mourned as a human, not an ethnic tragedy...


So I mourn for all the deaths but I cant find respect for people who are ignoring certain deaths.
By Smilin' Dave
#13420894
So I mourn for all the deaths but I cant find respect for people who are ignoring certain deaths.

I ignore nothing. When you come into a thread labelled 'Armenian Genocide', I wouldn't have thought the first and only thing you would want to say is 'they killed turks' and 'those documents are forged', if you didn't want to ignore the human tragedy. It stinks of negationism.

A full and detailed piece on Turkish deaths during the Armernian uprising would be quite interesting however, and I encourage you to start a thread about it, so we can all discuss it.
By Ozzy
#13421187
Will do... By the way, i wasnt just pointing fingers but for so many times I met people online who only sees one side's victim, i just fed up.
By Aekos
#13421667
^
The Turkish civilian casualties as a result of Armenian military action during WWI amounted to <10,000. The Armenians, in turn, suffered approximately 1,500,000 civilian casualties. The number of Turkish deaths could not have represented more than 1% of the total Turkish population, the Armenians lost over 60% - it was a more "successful" genocide than that of the Jews. There are a few million Jews in Europe, but only a scattered thousand or two Armenians in Turkey.

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