Armenian 'holocaust'? Yeah, right...More like Holohoax - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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The First World War (1914-1918).
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User avatar
By Vanasalus
#812394
circa 1910 in the Ottoman empire..


If a person's father is Assyrian/Kurd/minority, and the mother Armenian, what would the Ottoman authorities consider/label that person?

What about a person who is 3/4 Armenian and had a Turk as his paternal grandfather and kept his name, but culturally Armenian, be considered?


What about Armenian merchants who lived in cities for generations, and converted to Islam?
those that changed their name to a Turkish one?
both?

And in all these cases, if was advatagous for the Armenians to not call themselves officially armenians, but secretly still consdiered themselves to be Armenians, then would it not account for the population difference?


Quite appropriate well-aimed questions... Basically I have no solid answer. Plus, I am not aware of any study which may give answers for these questions. I can only guess.

On the other hand, all these probabilities, although quite harsh by nature themselves, help the thesis why 1.5 million Armenian could not be perished in 1915-1918 period.
User avatar
By Thunderhawk
#812686
I suspect that many of today's Turkish Armenians are Armenians who covered their ancestry, or tried all they could to say alive/not stand out.


which.. is perhabs why they make such a big deal about it now.

-> They are largely desendants of those who did nothing, and those ancestors had to do somethnig to show they werent actually traitorious cowards, so they over hyped the death toll and neglected other causes.. decades later, this compensation for their inaction, combined with a couple survivors, has led to the overly big story which has been institutionalized.



I do believe the genocide happened, though less then the 1.5 mill (the 600k number seems right) and not strictly due to Turkish actions (there was alot of diseases going around). But mainly Turkish action and dirrect inaction ("we forgot to bring water") led to massive and unnecessary death.


I'm willing to concede that admitting to such action is something Turkey is not ready to do. Ataturk died long ago and Turkey has never had a leader as strong of character and as forward thinking as him (few countries have).



Turkey denying it absolutely, has only infuriated the Armenians more.

When the Greeks/Bulgars/Serbs/etc gained their independance, Turkey didnt flatly deny every bad thing it did to them previously. Admitting it (or just not denying it) caused hatred, dislike.. but over time the wounds have healed better then blatant denile would have allowed.

Eventually Turkey will have a brave leader whose willing to stand up for what is right, not just poltically convienient, and start the reprochment - not just Armenians wanting money and the Turks wanting them to be quiet for friendly economic ties with the EU .
Soon after, there will be hatred, recrimination.. but Turkey will be better off for it in the long run.

.. I suspect the populace actually accepting the truth (not the Armenian or Turkish propoganda variants, but the real truth and heartily accepted however untastefull) will also kill off some of the extremist movements in the country.

(denile needs to be compensated for some how, fervent religous belief and extremism is a popular choice throughout history)
By armenica
#1029396
Hi!

Just some remarks:

Yes, the entire present Armenian population of Turkey (those openly stating their ethnic belonging as well as couple of hundred thousands in eastern Turkey living as "Turks" and "Kurds") are heirs to the Armenians of the Ottoman Turkey.

Secondly, the problem of present Turkey is not presenting facts about the genocide. Their foremost problem is psychological, daring to, in their Eastern oriented world of values, accepting that their father, grandfather and uncle were able to murder, rape and burn people, and then condemning them. This is not easy, regardless if you're in the West or the East. But the oriental mentality does pose a higher threshold, specially in Turkey were perpetrators of the genocide such as Talaat, Enver and Mustafa Kemal are regarded as demi-gods. There is not one single major street without a Turkish flag or picture of Ataturk, not to mention every single official and governmental space.

The true number of the victims of the Armenian genocide who died as a direct result of the killings is somewhere between 800,000 and 1,5 million. But if you add the additional hundreds of thousands who died of famine, diseases and the subsequent invasion of the Republic of Armenia by the Kemal/Karabekir armies the figures adds up to near 1,5 million. Ottoman Turkey was the home of about 2 million Armenians in the end of the 19th century, while almost none were left in the beginning of the 20th century. There are much accurate statistics presented in this question.
User avatar
By ArtAllm
#1029441
Jake:

Besides, if we're going to talk about other alleged acts of genocide against non-Jews, that opens a pandora's box.


Nobody is talking about an Armenian "Holocaust". They talk about genocide against Armenians.

It is quite OK to talk about genocides, but passing a legislature to suppress any discussion about genocides is wrong.

Freedom of opinion is a sacred right of Europeans. If French abolish this sacred right of free speech, it will be a real disaster.

BTW, Holocaust is a religious word and means "Sacrifice by burning alive".


Jake:

If we allow that to happen, next thing you know children will have to learn about the so-called Ukranian holocaust


What do you mean with "we allow that to happen"?
Who are "we" and how are you going to impose your opinion upon other people and other countries?

Nobody burned Ukrainians alive, so the word "Holocaust" is not appropriate for this genocide. The genocide against Ukrainians is called "Golodomor", which means that these people were killed by starving them to death, and that is true. The Bolsheviks took away their food and let them starve to death.

If you think that there were no genocides against Ukrainians or Armenians, you are free to deny these genocides. Nobody is going to force you to say these events were genocides - you are entitled to your own free opinion.

Everybody should have the right to have his/her own opinion about every historical event and freely talk about his/her opinion.

I am against the laws that prohibit the freedom of speech.
By Cherasaki
#1070314
Hi!

Just some remarks:

Yes, the entire present Armenian population of Turkey (those openly stating their ethnic belonging as well as couple of hundred thousands in eastern Turkey living as "Turks" and "Kurds") are heirs to the Armenians of the Ottoman Turkey.

Secondly, the problem of present Turkey is not presenting facts about the genocide. Their foremost problem is psychological, daring to, in their Eastern oriented world of values, accepting that their father, grandfather and uncle were able to murder, rape and burn people, and then condemning them. This is not easy, regardless if you're in the West or the East. But the oriental mentality does pose a higher threshold, specially in Turkey were perpetrators of the genocide such as Talaat, Enver and Mustafa Kemal are regarded as demi-gods. There is not one single major street without a Turkish flag or picture of Ataturk, not to mention every single official and governmental space.

The true number of the victims of the Armenian genocide who died as a direct result of the killings is somewhere between 800,000 and 1,5 million. But if you add the additional hundreds of thousands who died of famine, diseases and the subsequent invasion of the Republic of Armenia by the Kemal/Karabekir armies the figures adds up to near 1,5 million. Ottoman Turkey was the home of about 2 million Armenians in the end of the 19th century, while almost none were left in the beginning of the 20th century. There are much accurate statistics presented in this question



To add to the genocide of the Armenians many Greeks, Pontic Greeks and Kurds were also wiped off the face of the earth! I'm not blaming modern Turks for this but it is shameful that the Turkish government has consistently denied that it ever happened! Kamalism which initially was meant to move the country forward has become something that is backward rather then progressive! Things need to change!
User avatar
By Doomhammer
#1070332
Kamalism which initially was meant to move the country forward has become something that is backward rather then progressive!


How so? Explain.

This thread was out of sight for a long time, why recover it?
User avatar
By Harmandali
#1072297
To add to the genocide of the ...


Trying to propogate childish claims out of your mind like you have any reliable evidence for these sounds too low. It is always easy to blame the possible enemy, opposite side for every mistake in your own history, because then you don't have any sins to pay for.
User avatar
By alyster
#1072302
Jake wrote:The only holocaust that ever happened or really matters is the Jewish Holocaust. Get that through your heads.


Wrong! Not that I am an anti-semite but this is stupid jewish propaganda!
Or are you saying victims of holodomor are not humans?
Jews aren't bad but they are the most ego-centrical people I know.

And if anyone asks what's holodomor - then it is a result of jewish propaganda and whineing all over holocaust for past 60 years which have made us forget many other important genocides.
By armenica
#1072912
Professor Yair Auron, Jewish historian and lecturer in Israel, blames the American lack of recognition on Israeli pressures. 7 According to him, the Holocaust (the Jewish Genocide) plays a central role in Israeli society and within historical circles, increasing in importance as the years progress, and relying on the uniqueness of the Jewish Genocide. Political Israel, he argues, has intentionally repressed and refused to acknowledge the existence of the first genocide of the 20th century. He is not alone in his claims. Other Israeli historians, such as Professor Yehuda Baur and Shlomo Avineri, the former foreign minister of Israel, have openly called the Armenian massacres a genocide.

http://www.armenica.org/cgi-bin/history ... cgi?7==363
By Aekos
#1763114
Genocide denial is despicable.
The Armenian Genocide happened, and eventually the Turkish state will get over the fact. People are already having more liberal (non-nationalist propaganda inspired) views when it comes to it in Turkey from what I've read.
User avatar
By The Antiist
#1768060
There is no question the Armenian genocide has taken place. I'm sorry if it hurts your nationalist sensitivities that millions of people got killed.
User avatar
By Sephardi
#1806243
Even if the Turks did force a couple million Armenians into the desert and starve them to death, so what? Turkey is Israel's right hand man. Why embarrass Turkey? Besides, if we're going to talk about other alleged acts of genocide against non-Jews, that opens a pandora's box.

If we allow that to happen, next thing you know children will have to learn about the so-called Ukranian holocaust. Screw that! Ukranians say that Stalin deliberately starved 7 million Ukranians to death. Now, that sort of thing is an embarrassment to Stalin, right? We cannot demonize Stalin, because that only makes Hitler look good, or, at the very least, not the worst villain of WWII...which is the same thing as far as I'm concerned. Plus, 7 million dead Ukranians trumps our 6 million dead Jews. Ukranians are essentially nazis who do not deserve to infringe upon our sacred Shoah.

The only holocaust that ever happened or really matters is the Jewish Holocaust. Get that through your heads.


Did anybody realize yet that this guy is a troll and specifically to make Jews look bad.
User avatar
By Tailz
#1806250
Genocide: Noun. The systematic killing of substantial numbers of people on the basis of ethnicity, religion, political opinion, social status, or other particularity. Acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group.

Holocaust: Noun. A burnt offering, from Greek holókauston (holos: completely, kaustos: burnt) meaning all burnt or completely burnt sacrifice.

The Holocaust: or Shoah, the systematic killing mainly of six million Jews, but also of Gypsies, Slavs, homosexuals and other "undesirable" groups in Europe during World War II. Since 1978, this has been the main meaning of the English term.

That said, from a historical point of view of the actions, the destruction of the Armenian population of Turkey was Genocide. The destruction of the Jewish population of Europe was also Genocide.

The term Holocaust is incorrect as the Jewish population of Europe was not completely burnt, although this inaccuracy in terminology, the subject has become known as The Holocaust because of the association of the industrial scale of cremation used to destroy a large number of bodies. The same inaccuracy in terminology also affects any use to label an Armenian Holocaust.

Sephardi wrote:Did anybody realize yet that this guy is a troll and specifically to make Jews look bad.

Yes, it is rather obvious unfortunately.
By Mundame
#1835073
This is a troll; of course Turkey genocided the Armenians.

This is an effort to change American perception of history, probably by the government of Turkey, but it won't work. When I was growing up in the '50s my mother would cajole us to eat by saying, "Remember the starving Armenians."

It was a well-known event in this country and there is no use pretending it never happened.
User avatar
By Hypnogaja
#1915424
This is a troll; of course Turkey genocided the Armenians.

This is an effort to change American perception of history, probably by the government of Turkey, but it won't work. When I was growing up in the '50s my mother would cajole us to eat by saying, "Remember the starving Armenians."

It was a well-known event in this country and there is no use pretending it never happened.


This is the crummiest thought i've read so far.

That is the last thing that should be taken into account whilst you guys imposing your atrocities with torture and invasion. This is as barbaric as you leave out people suffering from low quality of life in foolishly labelled "Underdeveloped Third World" Countries. This is as barbaric as you concoct lies to bring in the US hegemony over the middle east. This is as barbaric as toppling a government to create a viable base nearby the abundant land. How could it be worse than that of yours?

Turkey is not the successor to the Ottoman empire, at least diplomatically.The agreements ratified by the former empire which lived on this land have gone invalid after the foundation of a fresh state. Turkey can not be held responsible for all this stuff.

Besides, the denial of so-called Armenian holocaust is rather beneficial for both the USA and Armenia. Prop up the innocent, make up some commitments and gain all the votes. This is how it works.

Nobody tends to remedy the problem but make it more complex!
By Evald
#1915446
Please do not mislead the readers. Turkey is denying to name Armenian catastrophe in 1915 as a "genocide". She is not denying the catastrophe.

The terminology doesn't matter when such the things are mentioned. They are all the crimes of the same scale. (By the way, there were a few massacres of Turks committed by Armenians). All the cases of genocide/catastrophe/massacre must be judged equally regardless of the religion, etnicity etc. At the same time, nobody is guilty unless he/she personally didn't try to prevent those tragedies, not saying about participation in them.
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