[LAz]

So, the 10th anniversary of the NATO bombing of Serbia is here... the day is tomorrow.

Big protests are planned in Belgrade/Beograd.


Here's a video from Russia Today news, called 10 years on,

Serbia still has not recovered from all the bombing of its hospitals, schools, and many other civilian infrastructure. The military targets were a very small part of the targets and hit things.

[Independent_Srpska]

In my opinion that was a pure fascistic assault by NATO countries!

[peter_co]

For what it's worth, it seems that even the NATO countries who perpetrated this attack are now regretting it, in light of the consequences it's had.

[secator553]

Grief. For victims of NATO aggression.
The rally at the Embassy of Serbia in Russian Federation

[Lost Angel]

I wonder if Russia could've helped more. Can't expect anyone else to step up. So wonder if she could do it better...

[Otebo]

Instead of looking back bitterly how about Serbia starts doing something to clear up all this mess.

Sign the convention banning cluster bombs which will lead to international help to deal with the problem of left over ordinance.

Cooperate fully with the International Criminal Tribunal.

Hand over Ratko Mladic and let talks about joininig the EU resume.

[Alex.ru]

so wonder if she could do it better...

I remember those times. There were loads of idle talks about helping Jugoslavija by the delivery of anti-aircraft systems or even about union. I think Eltsyn was merely afraid of any confrontation with NATO at that times, although that would be a good step in terms of gaining political reputation. Russia was only strong enough for babbling.

[Bosnjak]

@Alex.ru has historic reasons, what happened by the last to close alliance with Serbia?

WW1 was caused by Serbs, and Russia ended in Chaos, the Serbian King got Yugoslawia, the Russian Tsar a bullet

@Serbs, 10 Weaks of Bombs and you capitulated, good to know...

[Independent_Srpska]

wonder if Russia could've helped more... can't expect anyone else to step up... so wonder if she could do it better...

Probably not....Russia was in the big mess herself in those times....As some western fascists from the NATO used to say - Russia couldn't help herself, which was pretty much the truth...

But, Russia did whatever she could ....Just yesterday I read an interview with Primakov (good interview , though) and he said something like this:"We couldn't do much, but, in spite everything - we did many things ,they couldn't be stated in this interview, but we "came" a lot of times in Serbia, and we never came with our hands "empty"...

In the same magazine I read excerpts from the book written by some "executive assistants" (dunno the exact title) of Strobe Talbot (one of those high ranking fascists from the NATO )...pretty interesting stuff to read, really....it gives an insight in the thoughts of fascists while trying to kill one independent country and one proud people who did not give a fuck for their fascistic ideas....
HOwever, this guy writes how they (in the NATO) were pissed of by Serbian people who were throwing rock concerts while fascists were bombing bridges and TV towers and Chinese embassy and all sort of similar "military objects"...so, one of the fascistic NATO generals wanted to bomb those "fucking rock'n'roll bridges" while concert was going on... ...what else to say....
Yes, and this guy writes how Yeltsin slammed phone shut on Clinton twice when bombing started...Yeltsin was completely pissed of, but Russia was too weak to do anything ...and fascists knew that, so they continued just to prove to Russia that she was not able to help her ally country....

[Lost Angel]

Otebo, not all people are like your own kind, so your suggestion is unlikely to be considered.

Independent_Srpska, oh, crap we had Yeltsin at that point, damn... Good for nothing, did more damage to Russia than the bombing of Nato to Serbia... Now though Serbia seems to be drifting away... Will be in EU some day...

[peter_co]

Probably not....Russia was in the big mess herself in those times....As some western fascists from the NATO used to say - Russia couldn't help herself, which was pretty much the truth...

Though honestly, even today what could Russia have done. It's not like they would have started a war with NATO to stop the bombing of Serbia. The country is perhaps more organized today than it was ten years ago, but it's not that much stronger militarily, at least in regards to its power on the "world stage." The only possible thing I can think of is gas blackmail, however I doubt that this option is that probable either, since that would only really work in winter when the amount of gas used by European countries is much greater; in the spring and summer the demand is so low that they can probably gain enough from other sources. And Russia is still physically separated from Serbia by NATO countries, so that wouldn't really help either. In other words, as far as Russia is concerned, I don't think the sitiuation would have been significantly different.

I would like to think though that NATO would not have carried out the bombings had those series of events happened today. However, to some degree this was to a lesser or greater degree a consequence of Kosovo (Russia's justification for attacking Georgia, a stronger independence movement in RS based on Kosovo's precedent, the ethnic cleansing of Serbs in Kosovo, the unwillingness of northe rn Kosovo to cooperate with the separatist regime, etc.).

[Independent_Srpska]

Otebo, not all people are like your own kind, so your suggestion is unlikely to be considered.

It's not a matter of his kind, it's just a funny comment that does not deserve a response at all...

Independent_Srpska, oh, crap we had Yeltsin at that point, damn... Good for nothing, did more damage to Russia than the bombing of Nato to Serbia... Now though Serbia seems to be drifting away... Will be in EU some day...

Well, to be honest I don't give a damn about the EU....it is less known that Yugoslavia was the candidate for the EU (at that time EC) in 1989, but then these secessionists (Muslims , Croats etc) ruined everything...however my point is: Serbia was ready for the EU in 1989 (altogether with Slovenia, who were the engine of Yugoslavia) but then NATO decided to diminish Russian influence by breaking apart Yugoslavia i.e. by killing people in the Balkans...

Yep, Yeltsin was pretty useless I suppose....at least he saved youth ...by emptying alcohol....in his stomach

Though honestly, even today what could Russia have done. It's not like they would have started a war with NATO to stop the bombing of Serbia. The country is perhaps more organized today than it was ten years ago, but it's not that much stronger militarily, at least in regards to its power on the "world stage." The only possible thing I can think of is gas blackmail, however I doubt that this option is that probable either, since that would only really work in winter when the amount of gas used by European countries is much greater; in the spring and summer the demand is so low that they can probably gain enough from other sources. And Russia is still physically separated from Serbia by NATO countries, so that wouldn't really help either. In other words, as far as Russia is concerned, I don't think the sitiuation would have been significantly different.

I would like to think though that NATO would not have carried out the bombings had those series of events happened today. However, to some degree this was to a lesser or greater degree a consequence of Kosovo (Russia's justification for attacking Georgia, a stronger independence movement in RS based on Kosovo's precedent, the ethnic cleansing of Serbs in Kosovo, the unwillingness of northe rn Kosovo to cooperate with the separatist regime, etc.).

Well, if Russia was weak as it was in 90s - the epilogue of Ossetia and Abkhazia would be different, I bet...or it wouldn't happen at all....
However , you are right at one point - neither NATO nor Russia would provoke an open conflict. Both of them know where is the border and they know how far they can go across it at one point of time....
So, I don't think so that today would happen the case that Romania prevents Russia to air-support Russian troops in Kosovo (and RomaNIA was not a NATO member yet, if I remember well...and yet they then openly said that only USA can use their air-space )...it was in 1999...Russian troops rushed from SRpska to Kosmet and they were first to enter Kosmet (NATO was seriously pissed of)... The point is if Russians stayed in northern Kosmet - 17th MARCH 2004 would never happen! (When Squips expelled 200.000+ Serbs in front of eyes of NATO occupiers)...
I am not saying that Romania would let Russians fly over Romanian soil, but Russians today have an aircraft carrier in Mediterranean see (not very known fact to an ordinary people ) - in 1999 they did not have fuel for it ...Russians today fly the same routes they used to fly during the cold war...situation is slightly different....Russian word has a "strength" again, and Russian word is not to be ignored nowadays (this is what Russians say, and they are right....)....
There is one theory in "International relations" which states:"Europe is peaceful when Germany and Russia maintain good relations and the Balkans is peaceful when Russia is strong" ....I agree with that...especially with the first part

[Bosnjak]

I know somebody who was in Arkan Units, he has a club, he told me that during the NATO-War they took Albanians, brought them in Tents, and put pipes out, a smal fire was made that it looks from their Aviation-Nightscopes like a Tank. According him had the NATO only destroyed max 20 tenks, the rest were blown up Albanians in Tents.

After the NATO regocnized that they did not harm the Serbian Amry, they started to bomb the factories and bridges in Serbia.

[Lost Angel]

After the NATO regocnized that they did not harm the Serbian Amry, they started to bomb the factories and bridges in Serbia.

sure, and the 7 wise men came to Bush on the high throne and told him that evil evil Serbs are in fact having nato blow up fellow Albanians, and such was his fury that he had sent his best men to blow up civilians and their homes in Serbia... that's how it really was...
You don't realize it sounds like a fairytale, do you?

[Bosnjak]

They had Albanian Guerillas on the Ground.

[Lost Angel]

They had Albanian Guerillas on the Ground.

And? That helps the situation how?

[Siberian Fox]

Moderation note: Thread tidied up. Please use the report link to notify moderators if any forum rules violations or off-topic posts continue.

[LAz]

For what it's worth, it seems that even the NATO countries who perpetrated this attack are now regretting it, in light of the consequences it's had.

I have not seen them regret anything.

In fact politicians such as Ignatieff in Canada has said that the bombing was too little, that more should have been one. Scary, isn't it?

I wonder if Russia could've helped more. Can't expect anyone else to step up. So wonder if she could do it better...

Bulgaria, Romania and Hungary did not let Russia transport any troops over their soil to get to serbia. Now, if serbia bordered russia it would probably be different. But we also need to take into consideration of how hard the times were for russia. 1998 and 1999 were very hard years for the russian economy.

I know somebody who was in Arkan Units, he has a club, he told me that during the NATO-War they took Albanians, brought them in Tents, and put pipes out, a smal fire was made that it looks from their Aviation-Nightscopes like a Tank. According him had the NATO only destroyed max 20 tenks, the rest were blown up Albanians in Tents.

Worse things happened. After the bombing began, as a response to the bombing this happened, but it was worse. The bulk, overwhelming majority of the ethnic cleansing that happened happened after the bombing as a response to the bombing.

The number of tanks hit was 14. Hospitals, 33... education facilities... 480.

[Smilin' Dave]

Otebo, not all people are like your own kind, so your suggestion is unlikely to be considered.

What kind would that be?

It's not a matter of his kind, it's just a funny comment that does not deserve a response at all...

What's so funny about it? Dare I suggest that Serbia would have recovered faster had it not been isolated international? Well, if you want to play on the international stage, you comply by certain standards, and handing over a war criminal would be a good start. Unless of course "your kind" would rather protect a criminal than progress .

[LAz]

Dare I suggest that Serbia would have recovered faster had it not been isolated international? Well, if you want to play on the international stage, you comply by certain standards, and handing over a war criminal would be a good start. Unless of course "your kind" would rather protect a criminal than progress .

Wrong.

International standards in the unilateral 1990s meant to comply to US demands. We are in the late 2000s now, and the empire has been overstretched. The empire no longer can tell people what to do.

Serbia was complying perfectly with market socialism. Now, you are right, those were not the international standards back then, and this is why we were abused again and again.



You need to be aware that war criminals in the former yugoslavia are looked at in one way. If one is a croat, bosniak or an albanian then they automatically are not war criminals no matter what they did. Clinton's bombing/rape of serbia in 1999 killed thousands of civilians and injured many more. He is a criminal too. But does anyone go after criminal Clinton? Absolutely not. This is the context in which we need to look at the situation there, where we have these big powers butchering up yugoslavia, butchering up the remnants of socialism.
It is well known that the american kind promotes criminals again and again. The US has put countless criminals into power, and has kept them in power. We kept regimes in power that did genocides, and we openly supported their actions. In the case of east timor we even increased funding so that the genocide could be intensified. The US is the criminal here, and those are our international standards - free market economics, or get bombed.