[Smilin' Dave]

Serbia was committing ethnic cleansing??? Something is wrong with you, right? Genocide?? Definitely, you are not quite all right....please, be accurate - how/where Serbia has committed genocide/cleansing...

The exact phrase was Serbia and its proxies, like your namesake. Or did the military of Independent Srpska just spring forth from the ground by magic?. Want we to be specific about ethnic cleansing and genocide? How about Srebrenica?

What rings about Slovenia??? Please do tell me....what do you know about Slovenia and what happened in SLovenia?

I'm talking about a Serb dominated army invading Slovenia when it broke away from Yugoslavia. Much like Germany started WWII with aggression with its neighbours.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovenian_War

So, everybody was dirty, but let's bomb the Serbs? Right?

In scale and severity Serbian atrocities leave the others far behind. So yes, bomb Serbs, and forget the frauds who point at the crimes of other nations to hide theirs. Want to be more egalitarian? Bomb all war criminals. Somehow I don't think that would stop your lies and crocodile tears though.

no, I invented that....my man...switch of the matrix....you might see the references yourself ...just start using the brain....or google...

Your statements were to too vague to effectively search Google. I gather you have no hard evidence or you would have provided it. Instead you post some garbled shit about how I must be crazy not to live in your fantasy world. I can see this 'debate' is going downhill fast, with your usual trash tactics and irrational denials. It's really a shame the forum rules prevent me from showing you how much I detest people like you.

Well, what you read is one thing, what's the true is completely other thing

In the absense of a reliable source (and your continued denials of Serbian war crimes makes you far from reliable), I will continue to believe what I researched about Foca.

[Independent_Srpska]

The exact phrase was Serbia and its proxies, like your namesake.

So, can we conclude that Serbia is in your sentence just to spice it up - you know...I have no clues , but I will put Serbia in the bad context, then brainwashed people will swallow it easily...is that what you trying? ...well, dude, 90s are behind us, and CNN is going down because of the crisis...further on, what it means proxy in your funny sentence?

Or did the military of Independent Srpska just spring forth from the ground by magic?.

What do you think how Muslim and Croat paramilitary gangs sprang out?

Want we to be specific about ethnic cleansing and genocide? How about Srebrenica?

So, tell me...be more specific about Srebrenica , as I already asked...what Serbia has with Srebrenica? ....I believe I gave you enough proves that you can conclude that Muslims and Croats started with ethnic cleansing in HErcegovina and in Bosnia - so, let's talk chronologically, eventually we will come up to Srebrenica again...so, Muslims and Croats started mass execution of Serbs in March 92.....Srebrenica massacre happened in July 95....so, what was happening in the gap of "only" three years?

I'm talking about a Serb dominated army invading Slovenia when it broke away from Yugoslavia. Much like Germany started WWII with aggression with its neighbours.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovenian_War

Exactly!
First: Slovenia broke away - so, this is a cause....
Secondly: the reaction of legal armed force (at that moment 90% of highly commanding officers WERE NOT Serbs!) of the state which is attacked internally by terrorists and secessionists ...
So, Slovenia violates Federal Constitution by trying illegal secession, more over Slovenian paramilitary forces started killing border officers of Yugoslavia (who were there legally , controlling the borders of Yugoslavia) - hum, so you expect that army of Yugoslavia applaud to Slovenian crimes?! Really? Is that what you are saying?
So, we have a clear case of illegal AND THE VIOLENT secession - I can not imagine any state apparatus in the world which would applaud to that crimes, can you?
But, let's slide into the topic again, when Serbs from Croatia did exactly what Slovenians did in Yugoslavia - NATO helped Croatians to cleans out the Serbs from their home - isn't it hypocritical?
And yet, you, brainwashed as you are, trying to draw a parallel between Germany in WWII - so, you are trying to say that Poland was a part of Federal State of Germany and that Poland was trying to secede illegally violating the constitution of that Federal State, right? Aren't you funny?
Besides, let me point out, again, Serbia and Slovenia ARE NOT neighbours....difficult to realize, right? Well, life is cruel outside of the Matrix

In scale and severity Serbian atrocities leave the others far behind.

Really? SO, what's the physical unit of measurement of atrocities? 1 Smiling Dave? 1 SD of atrocities is worth - what?

So yes, bomb Serbs, and forget the frauds who point at the crimes of other nations to hide theirs. Want to be more egalitarian? Bomb all war criminals.

Well. Bomb all war criminals - that would be more appropriate, but somehow NATO failed that - who would know why....? Alas, NATO helped ethnic cleansing of Serbs in Croatia and B&H...interesting....

Somehow I don't think that would stop your lies and crocodile tears though.

Oh, here we go with matrix arguments ---> "you lie!" , then I ask what did I lie? ...then Matrix doesn't answer....blah blah ....I've been there....Matrixu akbar!

Your statements were to too vague to effectively search Google. I gather you have no hard evidence or you would have provided it. Instead you post some garbled shit about how I must be crazy not to live in your fantasy world. I can see this 'debate' is going downhill fast, with your usual trash tactics and irrational denials. It's really a shame the forum rules prevent me from showing you how much I detest people like you.

Oh, really - too vague?! Dates, names, places??

1. (March 01, 1992) - The attack on Serb wedding procession - perpetrator publicly (in TV interview) considered himself as a Muslim "Gavrilo Princip", meaning that he was very proud to be the one who initiated conflict in Bosnia and Hercegovina...
2. (March 03, 1992) - The attack and occupation of municipality Brod by official Croatian army and local paramilitary units of Muslims under control of Muslim leaders from Muslim part of Sarajevo (so called Green Berets, an armed wing of the biggest Muslim political party - SDA)
3. (as of March 03, 1992.) Formation of the first concentration camps in municipality of Brod for Serbs - documented by International Red Cross (the first captured man in ex-Bosnia and Hercegovina was a Serb - that saved his life in March 92)...even the concentration camp for women who served for mass rapings by Muslim-Croat forces
4. (March 25, 1992) Massacre of Serb family Martic in Brod (3 person dead...mother, father, son...mother was a Muslim married to a Serb...)
5. (March 26, 1992) Massacre of Serb families Zecevic, Milosevic in Sijekovac (near Brod) - 9 massacred Serbs (the youngest 17 y/o, the oldest 72 y/o..one of them mentally challenged - "real treat for Muslim-Croat forces")
6. The first religious destroyed - Serbian orthodox church in Sijekovac
7. (April 03, 1992) The massacre of 66 Serbs in southwest of the B&H (Municipality Kupres) by official forces of Croatia with a little help of some Muslims)..

This is too vague? Really? So, you need a DVD or time machine to get you back in time to see with your own eyes? I seriously doubt you would believe it your own eyes - you prefer the Matrix, naturally

So, be it....

1. The date is: March 01, 1992...

Here is the criminal (a Muslim) who started the civil war in B&H...he explicitly admits that after he killed a Serb in the wedding procession, the war started in Bosnia and Hercegovina...as you can imagine, he is proud of that....(if you can't understand Serbian, some of your "proxies' will be glad to help you...I bet...)

[youtube]CGByIqcWJv0[/youtube]

2. As for the concentration camps established for Serbs in municipality Brod, here you can see what Muslims and Croats did in March 1992 to Serb women....





3. As for the FIRST WAR CRIME on the soil of Bosnia and Hercegovina here is a video clip which contains material recorded one day after massacre....if you don't understand the language, you can see the dead bodies lying around (remember the date is March 27, 1992.) - the people who are visiting the place are members of Presidency of B&H...perpetrators are local Muslims organized by a Muslim leadership who sits in that Presidency....hypocrisy or what...?

[youtube]99S2M7Ny_HE[/youtube]

...etc...etc...

...so, keep your detest for yourself, dude...you might need it....disconnect from the Matrix.....or wait for Neo to find you....

In the absense of a reliable source (and your continued denials of Serbian war crimes makes you far from reliable), I will continue to believe what I researched about Foca.

Well, btw, I haven't seen any reliable source form your side ...ah, yeah, Matrix is to be believed! Don't question!

Please, what Serbian war crime did I deny? Please, point it out....oh, yeah , Matrix, I forgot....I'm stupid by default, i'm a Serb, I eat kids, I deny war crimes, that's well known....in the parallel reality called the Matrix, naturally ....no , need to prove anything ....
Pretty lousy, mate...pretty lousy....it's hard to sell out CNN-talk 15 years later....not wanted any more....switch off the matrix , turn on the brain, buddy

[pikachu]

Sorry I forgot about this thread..
Thank you Independent_Srpska for the response, it explains some things albeit I have to say much of it still seems mysterious to me.

Exactly because of the relation with muslims in the Middle East, so they can say:"Look, we are not against the muslims" (Paddy Ashdown, the ex-viceroy of Bosnia and Hercegovina, publicly said something like that not long ago), the other reason, even more important - it was opportunity to strike Serbs, a traditional ally of Russia (very weak at that time) and to reduce zone of Russian influence by helping Croats and Muslims to cleanse and kill as many Serbs as possible....

I suppose it makes some sense that the US would back Muslims so not to look completely biased against them but it can't be the only reason. As for the Russian influence, the thing is - to my knowledge there wasn't much, if any Russian influence in Bosnia, aside from CIS volunteers of course, during most of the Bosnian conflict - particularly in its earlier days. Russia only had real influence as part of the Contact group negotiators and even there - at first Russia tried to play a very neutral party. It is only later, when NATO began making concrete moves against the RS forces thanks to Clinton's pressure, then Russia began to issue protests. But that was late in the war, so it can't be the cause of the US policy. Should we then presume that the Bosnian Serbs and Serbs in general are somehow natural allies of the Russians, and as long as the Serbs have any power in the Balkans this power can end up in Russian hands? I don't see why it would necessarily be the case but let's say it is. Then wouldn't the other European powers, like Germany and Britain, be equally interested in making sure that the Serbs are weakened? Their behavior, at least in the beginning, didn't reflect this very well. The Germans seemed to back whatever foreign policy initiative came out of Zagreb - even if it is in effect an alliance with Serbia, and Britain for its part was accused more than once of pursuing a foreign policy that de facto favored the Serb side. There must have been something else to it.

You know, in several descriptions of the conflict, coming from most various places ranging from America to China, including some from rather respectful sources, I've encountered a description of the Bosnian conflict as a conflict between the European Union and the United States, in which the latter achieved a victory, but I could never figure out what they mean by this and why. The explanation that is often given is that Europe "showed itself incapable of handling the Bosnian crisis," while America presumably did. But I don't buy this at all. Sure, Europe can be held responsible for failing to resolve the Balkan crisis for 5 years, perhaps even perpetuating it - but so can the United States! Had the US not come forth so firmly in support of the Bosnia's Muslim population, it is very likely that the Balkan crisis would have ended in early 1992 with the Carrington-Cutileiro peace plan, if not sooner. It seems to me that the actions of the United States bare as much responsibility for the Balkan mess as do those of the Europeans, and I can hardly credit the resolution of the conflict as an achievement by either side really. Just because the final peace treaty was signed at a US airbase means the US won? Strange. What is your take on this view?

A part of the answer is in my signature....it was never an independent state - and these (today's) borders had been drawn by communists, without any consent...the most important reason - peoples trapped today in Bosnia and Hercegovina don't agree with its existence - it was imposed to us by NATO bombing, shelling and USA political pressure...

To my knowledge of all the people of Bosnia and Hercegovina only the Serb people are definitively opposed to the unity of the country, with Croats somewhat ambivalent and Bosniaks very supportive. Anyway, the question I raised above still applies. If this is the reason why the Western Europeans didn't like the idea of a unitary Bosnian state, why did the US government like it so much despite these reasons? Basically what I'm looking for is the source of the disagreement between Western Europe and the United States and why such disagreement exists.

humm, interesting point...however, the facts say that Muslims and Croats started with ethnic cleansing and massacres - Serbs responded ....so, could it be that French/British pushed Croats and Muslims to provoke a civil a war?...

Without looking at who started and who responded, we know the policy and we know the outcome - the policy was of condoning and perpetuating ethnic cleansing and the outcome is an ethnically divided Bosnia. Why is it the case that throughout the war the French and particularly the British were sooo interested in an ethnically divided and confederalized Bosnia is beyond my understanding, but it seems doubtless to me that they did. At no point during the war had they given any weight to the argument coming from Washington that BiH must be a unitary and sovereign democratic country where all ethnic groups live side by side. This option had been consistently pushed by the US and consistently rejected outright by the UK.

Their constitution in 1995 strictly forbade actions of German army outside of Germany...though, I think they were included in bombing - I think they had a type of aircraft that almost killed me - i still have, somewhere, a peace of that german bomb that hit my post...

I think German parliament changed that article in the consitution in order to participate in air attacks on Serbia in 1999...

Ok, if that is true that would explain the German behavior with respect to the bombing I suppose.

...but, dont' consider Brits and French as backers of Serbs - they didn't prove themselves at all in that directions, on the contrary...

I understand that very well, nobody can have any illusions about solid Serbo-French/British friendship after the latter two participating in bombing the former twice in less than 10 years. Nonetheless, it doesn't mean that they can't work together to achieve common goals when their objectives coincide...

[Bosnjak]

The Serbs wanted to create great Serbia. They had the Arms, because the Army was dominated by Serbs, and they had the motive.

The Republics got quickly recognised so they had to create Civil Wars, to get some Regions from Bosnia and Croatia.

Serbia allone rejected the plan of the Europeans to transform Yugoslawia in a Union with only foreign and millitary policy in common but this compromise rejected slobodan Milosevic.

The policy of the NATO was to sell Weapons to Bosniacs and Croats.

[Metalcommand]

The reason the war started was the near immediate recognition of breakaway republics by the west. By doing so, they forced the hand of the Serbs since it was clear that any kind of autonomy or possibility to remain in Yugoslavia was blown out of the window. The only option remaining was to live under Croat rule (which murdered over a half a million Serbs the last time it existed) or live their lives under Muslims in Bosnia led by a fundamentalist president. Their rebellion is completely understandable.

Oh btw. Bosnjak, Your dear fundamentalist president first agreed but then decided to withdraw his signing of the Cutileiro-Carrington Plan which would have guaranteed peace.