[Friedrich]

Hello my friends.

As I mentioned before in some other threads, the Germans have a problem with patriotism and identity. I want to tell you, that it's not even a "patriotism phobia", but also a anti-German problem! One example which happend today, was in my lessons where I get prepared for university-entrance diploma ("Abitur").
We had to read a poem which disgusted me. The title is: "Todesfuge". Published in 1948 by a Jewish concentration camp survivor. One stanza showed me what i actually knew before: The anti-German efforts where offensive and are still alive!

The stanza: "Death is a Master from Germany"

It is not just a poem, it is one of the most important poems in the post-WW2 era. How can someone be so uninformed to say something like that? I know, Germany did bad things in the 2.WW, but others like the Sovjets too.


In the concentration camps: 6.000.000 deaths

Victims of the People's Republic of China: 35.236.000 deaths

Victims of the UDSSR: 61.911.000 deaths

Source: Lexicon of the Genocides; (rororo, 1999)
_______

Isn't a master someone who is the best in something? Well, how we can see, the communists are the "best" at killing people, so shouldn't be the stanza:
"Death is a Master from Russia/China"?

The international politics and public pretend that the Holocaust is the most evil genocide ever! Where are the memorial days for the victims of communism in Germany? Where are the hundreds of rocks in Berlin for the victims of the communist dictatorship in east-Germany? I hate this victimhood of many Jews!!!

[dttk0009]

That doesn't strike me as particularly 'Anti-German'. The poem is written from the perspective of someone who survived the German camps, so naturally, it's not going to be addressing much else besides what can be related to himself. Atrocities should never degrade into measuring contests, whether it's Katyn, Auschwitz, Mai Lai, The Killing Fields, Holodomor, etc. They're all incredibly inhumane and that's what matters.

Though I do have to say that it's time to address the ethnic cleansing of Germans post war. Simply put, it's a forgotten event on an incredibly grand scale that cost millions of lives. I'm curious as to why it is never really addressed or remembered in Germany. It is pretty much unheard of and most people do not even know it occurred.

[Siberian Fox]

In the concentration camps: 6.000.000 deaths

Death camps. Places were people were taken not be to imprisoned, or worked, but exterminated.

I know, Germany did bad things in the 2.WW, but others like the Sovjets too.

Two wrongs don't make a right. Post-war anti-German sentiment was an obvious result of the people's of Europe having had such a destructive war unleashed upon them by Germany. Not just because they felt sorry for the victims of the Holocaust. The Holocaust however made it clear that there was nothing righteous about the Nazi regime. Why would anyone writing immediately after WWII have anything positive to say about Germany?

[peterm1988]

I have a sneaking suspicion that we may be able to see Friedrich at the Dresden train station on the 19th...

[Friedrich]

Though I do have to say that it's time to address the ethnic cleansing of Germans post war. Simply put, it's a forgotten event on an incredibly grand scale that cost millions of lives. I'm curious as to why it is never really addressed or remembered in Germany. It is pretty much unheard of and most people do not even know it occurred.

Do you mean the ethnic cleansing of the civilians by sovjets?

Two wrongs don't make a right. Post-war anti-German sentiment was an obvious result of the people's of Europe having had such a destructive war unleashed upon them by Germany. Not just because they felt sorry for the victims of the Holocaust. The Holocaust however made it clear that there was nothing righteous about the Nazi regime. Why would anyone writing immediately after WWII have anything positive to say about Germany?

I agree that two wrongs don't make a right, but why should a genocide be more important and another one -where even more people got killed- is less important? I don't understand why there are every year new Holocaust-movies and why there are memorialdays and billions of reperations, while other countries just don't care about their own genocides?! Thats the problem, the Holocaust is emphasized while others are not even known in the countries!

But I don't agree that WW2 is Germany's own fault!

[peterm1988]

Do you mean the ethnic cleansing of the civilians by sovjets?

It was ethnic cleansing, but one which I'd reluctantly support. The presence of German civilians in other states had been very problematic and was a major part of the justification of the land grab which Hitler pursued. Kicking them out solved this issue in a way which also helped the local populations which had suffered at the hands of the German government.

why should a genocide be more important and another one -where even more people got killed- is less important?

I think part of it is because genocide isn't - or at least shouldn't - just be about the numbers of people who were killed. Yes, Stalin and Mao killed more people than the Nazis killed Jews. But Mao wasn't trying to make sure that the Chinese had no future in China. Hitler, on the other hand, was determined to ensure that the Jews would be purged from Europe.

That goal, combined with the form it took, was particularly (thought not uniquely) evil.

But I don't agree that WW2 is Germany's own fault!

Why?

[Okonkwo]

But I don't agree that WW2 is Germany's own fault!

It wasn't the Poles who attacked us first, so the direct blame for unleashing the war lies with Germany. The war wasn't a necessity either, it was motivated by Nazi-ideology (mainly the conquering of Lebensraum in the East) and, from a political or military point of view, completely senseless.
Pray do tell in what way Hitler and his uncivilised thugs didn't plan the war even before they "took power", or how the 3rd Reich's economy on whose success the "Führer" desperately depended on, could ever have continued working without full mobilisation and massive armament.


.

[Friedrich]

It was ethnic cleansing, but one which I'd reluctantly support. The presence of German civilians in other states had been very problematic and was a major part of the justification of the land grab which Hitler pursued. Kicking them out solved this issue in a way which also helped the local populations which had suffered at the hands of the German government.

Thats not true! The major part of east Germany was hundreds of years in German hand. Silesia, Pommeria and so on where German to the core! And they just got killed because there where Germans, no matter if there was a baby or a old person, everyone got slaughtert!

I think part of it is because genocide isn't - or at least shouldn't - just be about the numbers of people who were killed. Yes, Stalin and Mao killed more people than the Nazis killed Jews. But Mao wasn't trying to make sure that the Chinese had no future in China. Hitler, on the other hand, was determined to ensure that the Jews would be purged from Europe.

That goal, combined with the form it took, was particularly (thought not uniquely) evil.

That actually shows us, that there are "good" massmurders and "bad" massmurders. So you want to tell me, that Mao was not as bad as Hitler because he killed the Chinese people (5 time more then Hitler had murder jews) because of another background?

That idea makes me dissapointed!

Why?

Well, we could make a special thread because it is really complex. There are many reasons. One example:

A pupil in my school held a speech about the 2.WW. He said that Germany declared war on the world(!), and thats why it's called World War! Someone loughed but no one said something about it, that Germany declared War on Poland because if its ignorance in the diplomatics. Thousands of Germans got killed by polish peasants before the german-polish-war began.

But let us talk about it in a new thread.

[peterm1988]

The major part of east Germany was hundreds of years in German hand. Silesia, Pommeria and so on where German to the core! And they just got killed because there where Germans, no matter if there was a baby or a old person, everyone got slaughtert!

It is undoubtedly true, but some of those lands laid on the other side of the border. A border which Hitler attempted to redraw by force.

Admittedly, the border jumped a substantial distance westward in 1945, but... The war was lost and the Soviets got to force concessions. Germany paid a price for having the foolishness to start a major war and then proceed to lose it, the Oder-Neisse line was one of the entries on the receipt.

That actually shows us, that there are "good" massmurders and "bad" massmurders. So you want to tell me, that Mao was not as bad as Hitler because he killed the Chinese people (5 time more then Hitler had murder jews) because of another background?

I'd say yes, there is a difference - even in numbers. Out of those killed by Mao, most were killed by starvation or other reasons. Mao did not gas millions to death. If we're talking about deaths caused as a consequence of policies rather than deaths which were the deliberate purpose of a policy, then the Nazi regime is responsible for all the deaths in the European theatre of the Second World War. Once again this means that the Nazi regime killed more than the Chinese Communist regime.

Even if, for argument's sake, the Chinese Communist government consciously decided to kill the millions that were killed and deliberately chose to do it in the way that they did, that the way it occurred was less evil than the Holocaust. It strikes me as particularly evil to isolate people from their communities before ripping them away and slaughtering them on an industrial scale. Those who were killed in Maoist China died, largely, because their local authorities were too enthusiastic in requisitioning grain or because they were forced to use stupid production techniques. It's utterly and completely tragic and I do not mean to diminish the scale of the tragedy whatsoever. But it was a tragedy caused by stupidity and political zealousness first and foremost. China's leaders entered this period with their eyes shut.

Germany's leaders, however, not only had their eyes opened, but kept meticulous records of the crimes they committed. The Holocaust is first and foremost not a tragedy, but it is a crime, a crime against the Jewish people and against the entire world.

Well, we could make a special thread because it is really complex

It is very complex. You should start a thread, I'd like to see whose fault the Second World War was.

[Friedrich]

I'd say yes, there is a difference - even in numbers.

I don't know what you think what moral is, but I think that every kind of killing is bad. I don't care if I have the choice to get shot, hanged, gassed and so on. I would maybe prefer someone because it hurts not that much.

Germany paid a price for having the foolishness to start a major war and then proceed to lose it

Poland deserved the German intervention, you just ignore the fact that the Polish government just didn't care about the genocide of the German civilians in Poland. Germany declared war against POLAND, and then the other who thought it's not fair, or someone who thought we have to "balance the powers" again joined in a war which made the German-Polish War to a World War. It is a lie, and has no evidences that Germany wanted to take over the world or whatever, that is just propaganda!

It is a shame for the world, that we made a "ranking of less important" genocides. The Holocaust was not the only genocide, and also not the outstanding one!

[peterm1988]

I think that every kind of killing is bad

Ok, who do you think is worse, the person who drives too quickly and kills a pedestrian turning a corner, or a person who drives quickly so that he will kill the pedestian he's aiming for?

Every kind of killing is not as bad. The difference between the Holocaust and the millions killed under Mao may be a difference between 9/10 and 10/10 on the evil scale, but there is still a difference. It isn't so much a question of how they died, but why they died. In my book, an inadvertent killing is not quite as bad as a deliberate effort to kill.

genocide of the German civilians in Poland

What genocide? They weren't treated great, but the jump from facing discrimination in central ministries (though not local services) to genocide is a massive jump. Are Turks in Germany the targets of a genocidal campaign? Of course not. Neither were Germans in Poland.

no evidences that Germany wanted to take over the world or whatever, that is just propaganda!

You're right, it is propaganda, but propaganda made by the Nazis themselves. Millions and millions of copies of Mein Kampf were given out. One of the key aspects of Nazi ideology was that Germany, as one of the great nations on earth, deserved to have an empire in a similar sense that the British, the Americans and the French had one. Now - this isn't that different, except for the fact that the Nazis wanted that Empire to be continental Europe - which brings up a whole different set of issues as well as my own controversial opinions on Nazism, but anyway - the fact is that the Nazis themselves did not hide their desire to forcibly control substantial chunks of the world.

The fact that you deny it when they themselves did not is quite perverse, to say the least.

[Friedrich]

Ok, who do you think is worse, the person who drives too quickly and kills a pedestrian turning a corner, or a person who drives quickly so that he will kill the pedestian he's aiming for?

So you want to say that it is a accident that Mao killed over 30.000.000 people? Read your statement again!

Are Turks in Germany the targets of a genocidal campaign? Of course not. Neither were Germans in Poland.

Thats a bad example. The turks are not discriminated in Germany, not even a bit in contrast to the Germans in Poland.

Millions and millions of copies of Mein Kampf were given out. One of the key aspects of Nazi ideology was that Germany, as one of the great nations on earth, deserved to have an empire in a similar sense that the British, the Americans and the French had one.

You are right by saying that Germany wanted to have -its diserved- influence in the world. It is questionable to say that they want to have an empire like the UK because it was very big. I also agree that they wanted to have "living space" in the east, but that is really not the reason for the war. Or how do you explain the efforts for a non-aggressive solution? Or the offer for a peacefull solution in 28. April 1939:

1.
Danzig returns as a free state in the framework of the German Empire.

2.
Germany receives through the corridor of a road and a railway line for itself.


and Germany offers:


3.
recognize all the economic rights of Poland in Gdansk;

4.
Gdansk in Poland a free port of any size and with completely free access to ensure;

5.
so that the border between Germany and Poland finally be taken as given and to accept and

6.
enter into a twenty-five years of non-aggression pact with Poland.

Why should someone offer that because he want to start a war?

[peterm1988]

o you want to say that it is a accident that Mao killed over 30.000.000 people? Read your statement again!

There's a difference between trying to kill 30,000,000 and doing it versus trying to do x and killing 30,000,000 in the process.

The turks are not discriminated in Germany, not even a bit in contrast to the Germans in Poland.

They are, though not on a substantial scale, and the Germans in Poland were not subject to destructive persecution. It didn't even approach the persecution of minorities (even non-Jewish minorities) in Germany in the pre-39 years.

If you have any evidence to the contrary, it would be interesting to see it.

It is questionable to say that they want to have an empire like the UK because it was very big. I also agree that they wanted to have "living space" in the east, but that is really not the reason for the war.

Well, it's not questionable. Hitler directly compared the slavic lands to the lands which the UK took over.

It was the driving force behind the war and that offer is a highly misleading bit of evidence to present. First of all, it was rather disingenuous - we saw that concessions such as that would rarely satisfy the German government for long. The Nazis wanted Danzig back. I think that was fair - it was, after all, a city full of people who thought of themselves as German. But it was not exactly the end of their intentions.

I mean, how do you explain that they had agreed to partition Poland with the Soviets a week before the war even began?

[Friedrich]

I mean, how do you explain that they had agreed to partition Poland with the Soviets a week before the war even began?

I don't know how you say that in English, but in German we say to that kind of politics: "Mehrspurig fahren" which means "to drive multitrack". I don't know what Hitler thought what was possible and what not that possible. It is clever to prepare for a possible event.

Have you read the demands and the offers of Hitler? I cannot see any other demands. Be aware of the historical facts and don't conjecture please. If you are a Jew, i know that it is maybe a bit difficult for you to accept that the Holocaust is not the #1 genocides world wide, but you should face the facts and be proud to know the truth, which is sadly just a minority. I also accept that we killed jews on a dreadfull way, many people who think on my way are denying the Holocaust which is absurd.

We could all be friends

[Siberian Fox]

Please continue any discussion about the reasons or fault for the invasion of Poland in the World War Two forum. This thread's topic is about Post-War attitudes.

[Smilin' Dave]

Victims of the UDSSR: 61.911.000 deaths

Can I see a quick breakdown of this figure? I thought the more common estimate for the Stalin period was 20 million, even if we extend this for the whole Soviet era, where do the remaining 41 million come from?

Isn't a master someone who is the best in something? Well, how we can see, the communists are the "best" at killing people, so shouldn't be the stanza:
"Death is a Master from Russia/China"?

Clearly you are unfamiliar with 'scar literature' from China, or the literary works about the Soviet Gulags (Solzhenitsyn for a start) etc. Perhaps you need to look at the world from something other than the 'Germany is centre of the universe' perspective?

Do you mean the ethnic cleansing of the civilians by sovjets?

I think you'll find that was driven locally as well as by the Soviets. In addition to fears of future territorial revanchism, activities like this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selbstschutz
Probably soured people on their German neighbours.

Something that always seems to fade into the background in discussions of the removal of Germans from eastern Europe is the post WWII saw mass movements of refugees and 'internally displaced persons' all over Europe. A lot of people after WWII found out they didn't have homes any more, for various reasons.

I agree that two wrongs don't make a right, but why should a genocide be more important and another one

Because the Holocaust was unusual for the 20th Century in that it was a deliberate campaign of extermination by a modern, previously liberalised, western European state.

Thats not true! The major part of east Germany was hundreds of years in German hand. Silesia, Pommeria and so on where German to the core!

Carry on like this is why people feared revanchism. Now would you like to explain how those areas became Germanised all those hundreds of years ago?

genocide of the German civilians in Poland

Would like to see evidence of a genocide of Germans in Poland prior to WWII.

So far your whole rationale for anti-post-war-anti-Germanism seems to be based on some shakey concepts.

[Friedrich]

I actually wanted to quote every line of your post Smilin' Dave, but then i realized it all comes to one point:

I said, that Germany did crimes in the second World War, i also said that i feel bad for it,

BUT

how we handle with the crimes is a crime itself, because we ignore all the other crimes and I feel confirmed in that topic because of all your post. This thread became to a "but you are more bad Germany"-thread, completle ignoring the facts.

I wanted to start this thread to take a look on other crimes, and to talk about that it is not fair that the other genocides are to be ignored. My great-grandmother had to take refuge from east-Germany, she told me what it was like over there and she never said that the Polish people are bad or something like that, even there where kind of progroms everywhere.

It is so easy to just focus on another country because than we all can just think that we did good things, and the other one all the bad.

You want to tell me something about the Selbstschutz and so on, but acutally thats what is not good. I said, other people did bad things besides Germany and you guys are posting stuff what Germany did! What the hell?

I am disappointed how the public thinks about this topic. As long as i will be alive I will honour the people who lived and died because they where Germans, or they got raped because they where German women. And all the other people who are suffering.

The palestinians, occupied and massmurdered by the Israelis. The christians in egypt, hunted and killed. All the genocides around the world which are nearly unknown because the Holocaust is over all.

Good night justice!

[Smilin' Dave]

This thread became to a "but you are more bad Germany"-thread, completle ignoring the facts.

This is a strawman you have constructed to completely ignore any disagreement with your position...

I wanted to start this thread to take a look on other crimes, and to talk about that it is not fair that the other genocides are to be ignored.

Your basis for this was to complain about one poem. I've pointed at there are many literary works about other crimes against humanity. You have ignored this to beat your chest and cry crocodile tears.

It is so easy to just focus on another country

Which is precisely the core of your argument. Instead of looking at Germany, you would divert us by getting us to look elsewhere. You would reduce crimes by saying they were someone lesser crimes compared to those of others. This is negationism.

You want to tell me something about the Selbstschutz and so on, but acutally thats what is not good. I said, other people did bad things besides Germany and you guys are posting stuff what Germany did! What the hell?

You want to put actions in context don't you? You want Germany's crimes in context with those of others. So lets look at those crimes in context.

As long as i will be alive I will honour the people who lived and died because they where Germans, or they got raped because they where German women. And all the other people who are suffering.

Revealing the real reason for this thread. Not, as you claim to explore post-war views, but to recast Germans (who you single out as special for some reason) as victims. It's a nonsense to label whole peoples as anything, but don't let that get in the way of your 'Germany is the centre of the universe' approach. Germany is good, everything else bad.

The palestinians, occupied and massmurdered by the Israelis. The christians in egypt, hunted and killed. All the genocides around the world which are nearly unknown because the Holocaust is over all.

Ah, feeling bad about the German focus, a token effort at balance. There is no shortage of material about the Israel-Palestine conflict, or Christian in Egypt. That's why you even knew they existed.

Good night justice!

Now false martyrdom? Having failed to make a strong point, you instead appeal to emotion. Come back when you have something of value to contribute.

[Lightman]

The fact that a survivor writing in 1948 was not particularly fond of the German nation offends and disgusts you? How dare those Jews, to complain about genocide a full three years after the end of the war? The temerity!

Even if we take those statistics as correct, those killings either had not happened or were not common knowledge at the time of writing, so to accuse Paul Celan of whitewashing their crimes is rather absurd. Further, to somehow justify the invasion of Poland is similarly ridiculous; you fail to note that the next day, Germany expanded its demands, requiring of Poland that state's access to the sea; all at the same time German saboteurs were killing Polish civilians. Poland did attempt to negotiate with the Germans, but the Germans set their representative home.

I bear no ill will to the modern state of Germany, but enough with this revisionism. It is ridiculous.

[Decky]

The fact is that Adolf Hitler was democratically elected, the Germans bought the war on themselves by choosing someone who promised it, the deserved everything they got. It is not as if they can claim it was no their own doing, stop moaning.