The euro delusion – goodbye to the third stupid utopian idea - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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'Cold war' communist versus capitalist ideological struggle (1946 - 1990) and everything else in the post World War II era (1946 onwards).
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#13804537
Little Englanders, xenophobes, eccentric constitutionalists, men of intellectual violence, extremists, Europhobes, even Mosleyites – Eurosceptics been called everything.

So if long-standing opponents of the EU are starting to sound a little tedious in their denunciations of “the Guilty Men” who tried to push Britain into the euro, forgive us. But when the entire political class of our continent has got such an important issue so utterly wrong it’s not something that should be brushed aside.

And when the establishment has been so exposed, it is rational that we start to question its other orthodoxies. James Delingpole and Guido Fawkes, among others, see parallels with the political consensus over climate change, and indeed Peter Oborne’s description of the appeasement era, “when dissent was greeted with suffocating ostracism and personal calumny, reminiscent of the fate of religious non-conformists in earlier times” could be applied to many areas where the British elite become ferocious towards bad-thinkers. This Independent editorial from 1992 will be studied in history books for years to come, as an example of politically motivated hate. (And, I hope, in psychiatrists’ manuals.) Yet the European project – the euro delusion – is part of a wider utopian mania that grips the political class.

At the Labour Party conference two days ago, Ed Miliband said that Labour had got it wrong over immigration, and “underestimated the level of immigration” from Poland. Only by a factor of 100 to 1 – so don’t worry about it. However, as my colleague Philip Johnston points out, this is to give a totally misleading account of Labour’s immigration policy, of which the A8 migration was just one part.

And it was not just that Labour “got it wrong” in a technical sense. They were systematically, fundamentally wrong in their entire philosophy, a level of wrong-ness that only comes about when intelligent people suffer from collective madness. Their approach to immigration, as many party workers have since confessed, came about from a flawed belief that ethnic, religious and cultural diversity was itself a good and liberal thing, a millennial belief in a universalism that could be called the diversity delusion.

The diversity delusion and the euro delusion are both symptoms of a similar pseudo-religious mania. Both sprung from a noble attempt to ensure that the horrors of 1914-1945, inspired by nationalism and scientific racism, were never repeated. Both make them more likely to be repeated. Jean Monnet, architect and first president of the European Coal and Steel Community, conceived the idea of a United States of Europe in order to ensure such wars never happened again, through a new empire in which nationalism had been erased. Because Monnet was opposed by Charles de Gaulle, who favoured a Europe of nations, he therefore he developed the "Monnet method” of “integration by stealth”, a policy that ultimately led to the tragedy of economic union.

Perhaps more influential still was Alexandre Kojeve, who set up the embryonic European Union and influenced a generation of pro-EU thinkers in France. He came up with the “end of history” theme, whereby national boundaries and exclusive communities would wash away and a new world without borders would emerge. The EU’s vapid motto, United in diversity, reflects this neo-Christian utopianism.

Without exception the guilty men of Europe also shared, and still, share, the diversity delusion. The Liberal Democrats have entirely signed up, and most of the Labour Party too, although the Tories must share the blame too. Only one senior Tory spoke up against both mass immigration and the Common Market, Enoch Powell (who was also a voice in the wilderness in opposing Keynesian policies – only Paul the Octopus in recent years has been more right). Powell’s provocative language certainly helped his opponents, but as immigration is by its very nature a more toxic subject, so milder opponents have been silenced, leaving only the cranks, oddballs and extremists to represent opposition to this new utopia. This in turn makes it easier to present critics as extremists, just as even a couple of years ago opponents of the euro were labeled extremists and xenophobes. Contrary to what proponents of this delusion claim, it is not about xenophobia or racism; the issue, as Charles Moore wrote on Saturday, is one of sovereignty, and sovereignty relies on the legitimacy that only nations can provide.

Instead, as Roger Scruton noted, European intellectuals tried to “discard national loyalty and to replace it with the cosmopolitan ideals of the Enlightenment… The problem… is that cosmopolitan ideals are the property of an elite and will never be shared by the mass of human kind.”

The European project was a utopian idea, and I suspect that Britain’s peripheral part in the third great stupid, European idea of the last century will soon be over. National loyalty, whatever the elites feel, is here to stay. I guess we’re all extremists now.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/edwes ... t-century/


I can't particularly think of much to add that would do anything but reinforce the sentiments of this editorial. I shall spare the people of PoFo the redundancy.
#13804689
You should wait until the "euro delusion" is finally over. Until then, it's just a crisis and a crisis ususally kills a host or makes it stronger.

If Europe finally splits up and engages in wars (ultimately manipulated by big powers like US, Russia and China) like in pre-1945-times, you can cheer.
#13804851
Military action in Europe has largely been rendered obsolete - the presence of nuclear armaments on the continent make large-scale conventional warfare impossible between the greater powers, to say nothing of the capacity to develop it by many without current stockpiles. In addition, trade between European states and abroad will remain important for prosperity. The European Union, however, is an unnecessary force in maintaining peace on a continent where the largest military powers are part of a single military alliance.
#13804868
The political regime would not collapse - the economic regime represented by the EU would, leaving the larger geopolitical structure in place. Germany and France, however, are not about to go to war with each other, and indeed, such action would be impossible - any major gains are impossible as long as your opponent has a nuclear arsenal, and its simply isn't worth the risk - especially as any major gains you do make won't be seen as legitimate by the outside world anyway, necessitating a major shift in international political culture to return to the pre-1945 era.
#13804924
The tradition of international affairs for the last fifty years, formed by the peace at WW2, represented most overtly by NATO. The term 'regime' here is referring to the set of international traditions and mechanisms under which international politics are conducted, the European Union of which is a codification of the underlying principles, but without which the principles do not cease to exist. The European Union was possible because this regime existed - the regime does not exist because the European Union does.
#13804932
Didn't the political regime in Post-WWII Europe come about partly out of a need to rebuild? In that case, the political and economic regimes didn't come about one after the other, but simultaneously? Also, isn't the major economic problem with the EU that France, Portugal, Italy, Greece, and (to a lesser extent) Ireland have heavy tourist economies. Tourist economies being highly unstable made it so the integrated Eurozone could be dragged down by, well, poorly planned economies. Which could be solved by making those countries invest in more primary/secondary industries.

In case it isn't very obvious, I know very little about the EU.
#13805234
Noelnada wrote:Unity makes strength. By force or by consent doesn't matter at the end of the day.


Hitler wasn't quite successful...

Charlemagne's empire fell apart at his death...

The Romans were pretty good for a few centuries.

But the Eurozone is....nothing like any of the above on so many levels I don't know what you're trying to communicate.
#13805268
Without the EU, there will be war in Europe again. It's as simple as that. There has always been war in Europe before the "European unification process" began in the 1950s and there was war in Europe in the region where this didn't apply (Balkan). If you "delete" the EU, there won't be an economic uniting force, so european nations will bond with economic superpowers (USA, Russia, China). And that will start to create rifts because these nations will then manipulate Europe in their favor. And this will result to war in the long run.

You are of course free to not believe that.
#13805375
It is utter silliness to think that without the EU, Spain, France, England, Germany, and Italy would all revert to pre-1945 diplomatic relations, and engage in war with one another. The fact that the EU came about at all, and the fact that these powers are all militarily aligned through NATO, indicates that a peace political cultural regime has established itself in Europe, one that both predates the EU, and which is not contingent on the EU's existence.

What, you think Angela Merkel is about to invade Poland, and the EU is the only force stopping her?
#13806543
Hitler wasn't quite successful...

Charlemagne's empire fell apart at his death...

The Romans were pretty good for a few centuries.

But the Eurozone is....nothing like any of the above on so many levels I don't know what you're trying to communicate.


I probably should have elaborated, but since i'm a lazy cunt... :|

What i meant is that the idea of uniting the European continent has always existed and will always exist as long as there are humans living there. And we're currently united by consent, this union could break up but however other attempts would unevitably take place after this unlikely event (at least in the meanwhile in my opinion). Attempts that would go through force (could be by external forces also) or consent (could think about enlarging the union idea to a larger area...).
#13806734
Noelnada wrote:I probably should have elaborated, but since i'm a lazy cunt...


I am far lazier :)

Noelnada wrote:What i meant is that the idea of uniting the European continent has always existed and will always exist as long as there are humans living there.


I don't think the Romans, Charlemagne, Napoleon, or Hitler were interested in creating a "European nation", I just think that they were out to conquer people. Tell me if I'm wrong. I don't really see the "European idea" in history as you seem to.

Noelnada wrote:And we're currently united by consent, this union could break up but however other attempts would unevitably take place after this unlikely event (at least in the meanwhile in my opinion). Attempts that would go through force (could be by external forces also) or consent (could think about enlarging the union idea to a larger area...).


There will always be forces pressuring for anything, European unity being among them. Europe has a half a billion people scattered among two dozen countries.

The present debt crisis between the "core" (Germany/France) and the "periphery" (Greece/Italy/Portugal/Spain) exposes this. A lot of people want an integrated Europe, but when push comes to shove, the Germans want their money. They really don't want to integrate with Greece, Spain, Italy, and Portugal when they're faced with these risks.
#13806865
I don't think the Romans, Charlemagne, Napoleon, or Hitler were interested in creating a "European nation", I just think that they were out to conquer people. Tell me if I'm wrong. I don't really see the "European idea" in history as you seem to.


I recall Charlemagne was trying to unite the Christians of the world, which at the time meant Europe.
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