Britain's view of its history 'dangerous' - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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'Cold war' communist versus capitalist ideological struggle (1946 - 1990) and everything else in the post World War II era (1946 onwards).
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#14726289
Almost all space programs started with nazi engineers and scientists.


lol no just no. If people believe these sort of things, I am afraid that I can't give a solid 10/10 for denazification program, its 8/10 now, sorry.
#14726301
They have managed the strange combination of pride and shame in one single emotion. They are proud of the good things the empire did as well as its liberal, market and cosmopolitan aspects.

However the British are also ashamed of many elements of their imperial history.

The combination of equal pride and equal shame has created a highly liberal capitalist reading of their nation's past. It reflects the UK's pride in its place in the world, its continued global ambitions but also its desire for a fairer liberal capitalism free from racism and sexism.
#14726306
Atlantis wrote:For what it's worth. The allies didn't mind the nazis. Beyond the show process of a dozen of leading Nazis in Nuernberg, the allies didn't care much about de-nazification.

The allies weren't some ideological monolith, the death of that Commie loving piece of garbage Franklin Delano Roosevelt wasn't providential for Hitler but it was certainly providential for the West; shame it didn't happen before Casablanca. I agree with your main point though, that the critical factor was the attitude of the Germans, although I would argue that in itself was in part driven by the split occupation. It made Germans dependant on their western occupiers in a way that the Japanese were not.
#14726317
Rich wrote:I agree with your main point though, that the critical factor was the attitude of the Germans, although I would argue that in itself was in part driven by the split occupation. It made Germans dependant on their western occupiers in a way that the Japanese were not.

I don't follow you here. The split occupation made Germany dependent on its Western allies for reunification (they had to sell their currency to the French, and their sovereignty to the Americans and British to get reunification), but that didn't have anything to do with how the Germans reflected on the nazi past. The allies never were interested in Germany's nazi past except for exploiting it to humiliate the Germans whenever necessary. The Germans simply realized that 1914 and 1933 were what destroyed Germany for good and that excessive nationalism did great damage to Germany. To anybody who knows history and knows post-war Germany, this is self-evident.

Moreover, the Japanese are even more dependent on their US occupiers than the Germans. Japan is one of the most isolated nations in the world. Alienated from its Asian neighbors by war and by arrogance, the Japanese completely depend on the Americans. Germany can free itself from American domination by European integration.
#14726330
fuser wrote:lol no just no. If people believe these sort of things, I am afraid that I can't give a solid 10/10 for denazification program, its 8/10 now, sorry.

I used to work in the space business and know that Indian space technology got substantial technological transfers from French space programs. When you go to visit the museum of the French rocket engine maker at Vernon near Paris, you can still see a replica of the V2 the nazis built to bomb London. After capitulation in 1945, the French used nazi engineers and scientists to start their own space program. In the US, nazi engineers designed missile programs and the Saturn and Apollo launchers. The British and Russians also used nazi engineers to start their respective space programs. They also took hardware and billions worth in intellectual property. China got its technology from the SU, and Japan got its technology from the US. So yes, it all started with the V1 & 2 built by the Nazis.

Wernher Magnus Maximilian Freiherr von Braun (March 23, 1912 – June 16, 1977) was a German, later American, aerospace engineer[2] and space architect credited with inventing the V-2 rocket for Nazi Germany and the Saturn V for the United States.[3][4] He was one of the leading figures in the development of rocket technology in Nazi Germany, where he was a member of the Nazi Party and the SS. Following World War II, he was moved to the United States, along with about 1,500 other scientists, technicians, and engineers, as part of Operation Paperclip, where he developed the rockets that launched the United States' first space satellite Explorer 1, and the Apollo program manned lunar landings.


Operation Paperclip was the United States Office of Strategic Services (OSS) program in which more than 1,500 Germans,[1] primarily scientists but also engineers and technicians, were brought to the United States from Nazi Germany for government employment starting in 1945 and increasing in the aftermath of World War II.[2] It was conducted by the Joint Intelligence Objectives Agency (JIOA) and in the context of the burgeoning Cold War. One purpose of Operation Paperclip was to deny German scientific expertise and knowledge to the Soviet Union[2] and the United Kingdom,[3] as well as to inhibit post-war Germany from redeveloping its military research capabilities. A related course of action was taken by the US with regard to Japanese human experimenters employed from Unit 731. By comparison, the Soviet Union had Operation Osoaviakhim, forcibly (at gunpoint) recruiting 2,000+ German specialists to the Soviet Union during one night.


Operation Osoaviakhim was a Soviet operation which took place on 22 October 1946, with NKVD and Soviet army units forcibly (at gunpoint) recruiting more than 2,000 military-related technical specialists from the Soviet occupation zone of post-World-War-II Germany for employment in the Soviet Union.[1] Much related equipment was moved too, the aim being to virtually transplant research and production centres, such as the relocated V-2 rocket centre at Mittelwerk Nordhausen, from Germany to the Soviet Union, and collect as much materiel as possible from test centres such as the Luftwaffe's central military aviation test centre at Erprobungstelle Rechlin, taken by the Red Army on 2 May 1945. The codename "Osoaviakhim" was the acronym of a Soviet paramilitary organisation, later renamed DOSAAF.
#14726437
You happen to work in any industry and any country that the discussion is about on PoFo, so sorry for not taking your claims seriously. :lol:

Also being a Jon Snow on those discussions doesn't help either.
#14726445
fuser wrote:You happen to work in any industry and any country that the discussion is about on PoFo, so sorry for not taking your claims seriously.

Unlike you, I write about things I know about, but I respect your choice of ignorance. Just don't pretend you know anything.

You first imply that I’m a Nazi because I quote historical facts. Then you say I’m lying even though these historical facts are common public knowledge (see above) and/or common knowledge to persons in the field.

Your deliberate choice of ignorance is one thing, your deliberate insults based on that ignorance shows an unfortunate character trait. Better stop digging now. You are never going to get out of this hole.
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