[independent_turkiye]

I understood your question. If you look at the idea how Hitler brainwashed German people without historical and social conditions you will think that a guy who gets 40 pecent votes, you can say can become a dictator if they want. When he came to power, Germany was in very weak conditions, and there was too much poverty. The reason was Versailles Treaty, peace treaty after Germany made accepted and the most important of its factories were in France's hands and it was a very heavy peace treaty. European leaders say afterwards, peace treaties has caused war so after 2nd World War, treaties' conditions were much more lighter. ( Peace treaty Sevres, caused an independence war in Turkiye and Kemalists tore it, and signed Lausenne.) So in these conditions, he made propaganda against French, Jews (who people were jealous cause they were making trade and were rich) and many poor people supported him. Also, Goebells known as one of the best propagandist in World, was his right hand, and he achieved a very huge industrilisation with an authoritirian regime economically also.

Bolsheviks were only 100.000 in Russia, but they were called as proffesional revolutioners, who didn't have any other job like their political rivals, Mencheviks so 100.000 professional revolutioner makes a huge difference and they gained prestige with the propaganda for people and Russia not to join war cause it is for imperialist interests. People were poor and char didn't have any prestige anymore, and this was very affectful to defeat their rivals. There were also many soldiers (first rebel starts with Potemkin ship, the movie POtemkin Battleship), and there was also a big renaissence behind it. (many nihilists, anarchists and socialist writers)

So, usually, these kind of alternative regimes are usually in the unusual conditions, where systems have lost its prestige and can't feed its people.

[Truth?]

I understood your question. If you look at the idea how Hitler brainwashed German people without historical and social conditions you will think that a guy who gets 40 pecent votes

Hitler did not brainwash anybody this is such a cop out. Hitler was elected and supported because he was considered the cure to the Versailles Treaty. Nothing else...nope nothing more.

[Far-Right Sage]

True, but to be fair you have to say that several regions were allowed to vote on their future country and they voted for Poland.

Yes, but that isn't really the issue. A vocal German minority wasn't being allowed its right to speak in various Polish regions. The fact of the matter is that the Polish government in 1939, had territorial ambitions in Germany, and the only reason that Warsaw didn't buckle under German pressure was because the Polish military believed it could easily hold its ground against the Wehrmacht and then some. Remember, before the actual invasion, this wasn't so much a conflict of race, but a conflict over land.

[Potemkin]

The fact of the matter is that the Polish government in 1939, had territorial ambitions in Germany

I have to agree with FRS here. Because of the Nazi invasion of 1939, the Polish government of that time is regarded as a victim of foreign aggression, an innocent and peaceful government being overthrown by evil foreign powers. In reality, the Polish government was itself an aggressive expansionist power, a militaristic dictatorship which had launched an unprovoked invasion of Soviet Russia just after the Revolution to grab territory it regarded as rightfully its own, and which harboured ambitions of doing something similar to Germany. The Polish government in the 1920s and 30s was rightly regarded as a threat to its neighbours, an undemocratic and aggressive power. I'm not saying this to justify the German invasion or the Soviet occupation of east Poland which followed, but to point out that the Polish government of the time was by no means an innocent bystander.

[Torwan]

That's true to some point.

However, during the 30s, the Poles didn't show any signs of aggression (to my knowledge). Their aggressive time ended during the 20s when they ended the war with the Soviets and with the German Freikorps.

During the 30s they didn't proof to be very cooperative, granted, but hardly provoked anyone to attack. The un-cooperativeness can be easily read in the documents about the discussions of a UK/France/USSR-alliance in August 1939 (translated in the book "Der Wortbruch"). Poland relied totally an UK/F and totally mistrusted the USSR and wouldn't even allow their armies to pass through Poland when fighting Germany.

[Potemkin]

However, during the 30s, the Poles didn't show any signs of aggression (to my knowledge). Their aggressive time ended during the 20s when they ended the war with the Soviets and with the German Freikorps.

Yeah, I think their Soviet adventure badly scared the Polish government. Like Saddam against the Iranians, they seemed to think they could gain an easy victory over the feeble Soviets and grab some territory. It ended up with the Red Army almost at the gates of Warsaw. After their miraculous escape from that, they seemed to become ultra-cautious. However, their neighbours never trusted them, and didn't hesitate to carve them up when the opportunity presented itself in 1939.

[Far-Right Sage]

That's true to some point.

However, during the 30s, the Poles didn't show any signs of aggression (to my knowledge). Their aggressive time ended during the 20s when they ended the war with the Soviets and with the German Freikorps.

During the 30s they didn't proof to be very cooperative, granted, but hardly provoked anyone to attack. The un-cooperativeness can be easily read in the documents about the discussions of a UK/France/USSR-alliance in August 1939 (translated in the book "Der Wortbruch"). Poland relied totally an UK/F and totally mistrusted the USSR and wouldn't even allow their armies to pass through Poland when fighting Germany

It must be remembered that in the early-mid 1930's, upon Hitler coming to power, Poland was considered to be a potential ally against the Soviet Union by the German leadership. And before you begin with Nazi racial ideology, that's a completely separate issue. Nazi Germany had no qualms about forging alliances with the anti-Soviet and anti-Bolshevist Slav states of Eastern Europe, from Horthy's Hungary to Antonescu's Romania.

Berlin and Warsaw had signed a treaty of cooperation as early as 1934. The Polish government was viciously anti-Semitic, and had even begun placing exiled German Jews into concentration camps long before the Wehrmacht marched onto Polish soil. Had the military not been so overconfident and aggressively expansionist, thirsty for German territory, the Polish government would have eagerly cooperated with Germany in an anti-Soviet front, and would have gleefully dealt with their "Jewish problem" to appease Berlin; certainly with more zeal than either the Romanians or the Hungarians.

Poland was by no means an innocent victim. It was an aggressive power, every bit as much as Nazi Germany or the USSR; it was simply much less powerful.

[Shade2]

Nazi Germany had no qualms about forging alliances with the anti-Soviet and anti-Bolshevist Slav states of Eastern Europe, from Horthy's Hungary to Antonescu's Romania

Oh yes, especially since neither Hungarians nor Romanians are of Slavic origin. The rest of your post is of similar lunatic ignorance.

[Far-Right Sage]

Oh yes, especially since neither Hungarians nor Romanians are of Slavic origin

You would be correct; I apologize for that silly error.

I was confusing Hungarians with Bulgarians, and generalizing Romanians as well. It's easy to confuse the non-Germanic, Eastern and Central European peoples.

The rest of your post is of similar lunatic ignorance.

If you wish to debunk my post, you'll have to do it on the individual merits, and not on one sole factual inaccuracy. You're truly reaching.

[Torwan]

It must be remembered that in the early-mid 1930's, upon Hitler coming to power, Poland was considered to be a potential ally against the Soviet Union by the German leadership. And before you begin with Nazi racial ideology, that's a completely separate issue. Nazi Germany had no qualms about forging alliances with the anti-Soviet and anti-Bolshevist Slav states of Eastern Europe, from Horthy's Hungary to Antonescu's Romania.

That's of course true. Racial issues didn't prevent Hitler from doing pragmatic decisions, like signing the non-aggression-treaty with the Soviets in 1939.

However, the Poles were never that cooperative, neither with Germany nor the Western Allies, so they were quickly dropped as potential allies and regarded as potential enemies, beginning some time in the late 30s.

The Western Allies on the other hand tried to reach an agreement until late August 1939, but at some point they were frustrated. Plus, the Soviets realized that there was more to gain with Germany than with the Western Allies.

Of course, there's no discussion on power. The war of 1939 showed that clearly.

[pugsville]

didnt the poles get their bit of czechslovikia in the Tenschion region? (yes spelling isnt my strong point) The poles werent their own best friends, a strong polish-czech front seems to make sense politically looking back having similar problems, but the really dint get on and quite disliked each other not quite sure why.

[guzzipat]

On the ammount of electoral support for the Nazi party, the records are clear.

In early elections their vote was minimal at around 3%. It was the depression that made their vote take off. Their peak was in July 1932 with a vote of 37.4%.
By the last vote, with economic conditions improving, their vote declined to 33.1%, they lost 2m votes and 34 Reichstag seats.

[Smilin' Dave]

didnt the poles get their bit of czechslovikia in the Tenschion region? (yes spelling isnt my strong point)

IIRC Poland did get a chunk of Czechoslovakia in the break up, but I can't recall the name of the area.

a strong polish-czech front seems to make sense politically looking back having similar problems, but the really dint get on and quite disliked each other not quite sure why.

The border dispute aside, the Czechs were seen in this period to be pro-Soviet (or at least more so than most), which probably didn't do much for Polish-Czech unity.