[NoRapture]

During Hitler's reign over Germany, Europe, and the Holocaust I'm wondering what the political range of the German people was? Were they mostly free-market, economically conservative or "libertarian" in their views, or more socially moral conservatives? Or were they more socialistic and economically open-minded in their views? Entertaining ideas that came from many different cultures, nationalities, and religions? More liberal?

And I'm wondering whether it would have been better to be politically conservative or liberal in Hitler Germany? Where would the identity of a German citizen who was actively working toward the overthrow of his government have fallen on a political scale? Did the actions of their government leave them holding any social or political responsibilities at all?

And, historically, how much did any of their "politics" matter?

[Annatar]

The German people during the time of the 3rd Reich were mostly statist, collectivistic and nationalistic as they had been during the times of Imperial Germany and the Weimar Republic. Support for the free-market had always been extremely limited in German lands, even before Germany existed. Support for what Spengler called "Prussian Socialism" was very widespread in germany, especially in the Protestant North. Socially Germans were progressive when it came to issues like worker rights, healthcare and welfarism. Morally there was a divide between the Protestant North and the Catholic South. Most Germans in the North were chauvinistic when it came to national issues, tolerating the atrocities they knew about. Southern Germans were more moderate when it came to blatant chauvinism. A great deal of the cruelest Nazis originated in the South and Austria though. Hitler himself, Himmler, Mengele, Eichmann and Kaltenbrunner being some of the most prominent.

Would it have been better to have been conservative or liberal in Nazi Germany?

If you use the American definition of the terms, which I assume you do, it would have been better to be a conservative. Liberal concern for minority rights and pacifism wouldn't have flown very well in Nazi Germany.

Where would the identity of a German citizen who was actively working toward the overthrow of his government have fallen on a political scale?

Communists, monarchists and devout catholics were the biggest opponents of the Nazi Regime. Most dissidents were either on the extreme left or the traditional conservative right, which is drastically different from the American conservative right.

[SaulOhio]

Why is this topic in the North America forum?

[Manuel]

Political Compass Ratings

Economically, they were left of the Democrats.

Socially, they were right of the Republics.

Authoritarian-ly, they were above them them all.

[Potemkin]

Political Compass Ratings

Economically, they were left of the Democrats.

Socially, they were right of the Republics.

Authoritarian-ly, they were above them them all.

That pretty much sums it up. By European standards, they were on the far Right (think Far Right Sage with anti-Semitism); by American standards, they were just crazy.

[QatzelOk]

Why is this topic in the North America forum?

Because we are trying to understand the present by reviewing our knowledge of similar phenomena in the past.

[Steven_K]

I don't see how they could be defined as economically far-left. What industries were nationalized under Hitler? The collusion between the 3rd Reich and big business was extensive - they made a killing (no pun intended). It was a sort of corporate-government nexus, with enormous private profits generated through government contacts and government business.

[Manuel]

Hitler engaged in massive public works projects, and many of his programs can be described as far-left.

The Nazi Party furthermore, advocated:

…that the State shall make it its primary duty to provide a livelihood for its citizens… the abolition of all incomes unearned by work… the ruthless confiscation of all war profits… the nationalization of all businesses which have been formed into corporations… profit-sharing in large enterprises… extensive development of insurance for old-age… land reform suitable to our national requirements…

What Hitler did not do that Marx did is rail against private property. Despite heavy regulation and government oversight, individuals were left in charge of their own companies, and a heavily regulated capitalist structure remained. Hitler said it as such:

I want everyone to keep what he has earned subject to the principle that the good of the community takes priority over that of the individual. But the State should retain control; every owner should feel himself to be an agent of the State… The Third Reich will always retain the right to control property owners.”

While not perhaps as far-left as Falange, Fascist, or Integralist programs in practice [theory-wise Strasserism is nearly identical to these, with an anti-Jewish bias], the fact remains that the Nazi Party preached and practiced far to the left of today's Democrats.

[Potemkin]

Using the American rather than the European definitions of 'left' and 'right', they could indeed be said to be "left of the Democrats" on economic matters, if the economic 'right' is defined as the libertarian dream of absolutely free markets. This does not correspond to the European definition of the economic 'left' and 'right' of course. By European standards, the Nazis' economic stance was a throwback to pre-capitalist concepts of corporatism and the "organic society" of feudalism.

[Dr House]

I don't see how they could be defined as economically far-left. What industries were nationalized under Hitler? The collusion between the 3rd Reich and big business was extensive - they made a killing (no pun intended). It was a sort of corporate-government nexus, with enormous private profits generated through government contacts and government business.

Exactly. The fascist economy is not left-wing because it is based on the concept of freezing the class structure and establishing vertical negotiation between classes. It's like calling feudalism left-wing.

[Dan]

Let's take a look at their policies:

1. We demand the unification of all Germans in the Greater Germany on the basis of the right of self-determination of people.
2. We demand equality of rights for the German people in respect to the other nations; abrogation of the peace treaties of Versailles and St. Germain.
3. We demand land and territory (colonies) for the sustenance of our people, and colonization for our surplus population.
4. Only a member of the race can be a citizen. A member of the race can only be one who is of German blood, without consideration of creed. Consequently no Jew can be a member of the race.
5. Whoever has no citizenship is to be able to live in Germany only as a guest, and must be under the authority of legislation for foreigners.
6. The right to determine matters concerning administration and law belongs only to the citizen. Therefore we demand that every public office, of any sort whatsoever, whether in the Reich, the county or municipality, be filled only by citizens. We combat the corrupting parliamentary economy, office-holding only according to party inclinations without consideration of character or abilities.
7. We demand that the state be charged first with providing the opportunity for a livelihood and way of life for the citizens. If it is impossible to sustain the total population of the State, then the members of foreign nations (non-citizens) are to be expelled from the Reich.
8. Any further immigration of non-citizens is to be prevented. We demand that all non-Germans, who have immigrated to Germany since the [2 August 1914], be forced immediately to leave the Reich.
9. All citizens must have equal rights and obligations.
10. The first obligation of every citizen must be to work both spiritually and physically. The activity of individuals is not to counteract the interests of the universality, but must have its result within the framework of the whole for the benefit of all Consequently we demand:
11. Abolition of unearned (work and labour) incomes. Breaking of rent-slavery.
12. In consideration of the monstrous sacrifice in property and blood that each war demands of the people personal enrichment through a war must be designated as a crime against the people. Therefore we demand the total confiscation of all war profits.
13. We demand the nationalisation of all (previous) associated industries (trusts).
14. We demand a division of profits of all heavy industries.
15. We demand an expansion on a large scale of old age welfare.
16. We demand the creation of a healthy middle class and its conservation, immediate communalization of the great warehouses and their being leased at low cost to small firms, the utmost consideration of all small firms in contracts with the State, county or municipality.
17. We demand a land reform suitable to our needs, provision of a law for the free expropriation of land for the purposes of public utility, abolition of taxes on land and prevention of all speculation in land.
18. We demand struggle without consideration against those whose activity is injurious to the general interest. Common national criminals, usurers, Schieber and so forth are to be punished with death, without consideration of confession or race.
19. We demand substitution of a German common law in place of the Roman Law serving a materialistic world-order.
20. The state is to be responsible for a fundamental reconstruction of our whole national education program, to enable every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education and subsequently introduction into leading positions. The plans of instruction of all educational institutions are to conform with the experiences of practical life. The comprehension of the concept of the State must be striven for by the school [Staatsbuergerkunde] as early as the beginning of understanding. We demand the education at the expense of the State of outstanding intellectually gifted children of poor parents without consideration of position or profession.
21. The State is to care for the elevating national health by protecting the mother and child, by outlawing child-labor, by the encouragement of physical fitness, by means of the legal establishment of a gymnastic and sport obligation, by the utmost support of all organizations concerned with the physical instruction of the young.
22. We demand abolition of the mercenary troops and formation of a national army.
23. We demand legal opposition to known lies and their promulgation through the press. In order to enable the provision of a German press, we demand, that: a. All writers and employees of the newspapers appearing in the German language be members of the race: b. Non-German newspapers be required to have the express permission of the State to be published. They may not be printed in the German language: c. Non-Germans are forbidden by law any financial interest in German publications, or any influence on them, and as punishment for violations the closing of such a publication as well as the immediate expulsion from the Reich of the non-German concerned. Publications which are counter to the general good are to be forbidden. We demand legal prosecution of artistic and literary forms which exert a destructive influence on our national life, and the closure of organizations opposing the above made demands.
24. We demand freedom of religion for all religious denominations within the state so long as they do not endanger its existence or oppose the moral senses of the Germanic race. The Party as such advocates the standpoint of a positive Christianity without binding itself confessionally to any one denomination. It combats the Jewish-materialistic spirit within and around us, and is convinced that a lasting recovery of our nation can only succeed from within on the framework: The good of the state before the good of the individual.[10]
25. For the execution of all of this we demand the formation of a strong central power in the Reich. Unlimited authority of the central parliament over the whole Reich and its organizations in general. The forming of state and profession chambers for the execution of the laws made by the Reich within the various states of the confederation. The leaders of the Party promise, if necessary by sacrificing their own lives, to support by the execution of the points set forth above without consideration.

A lot of the Nazi's program was full on socialism. The Nazi's were economically non-Marxist socialists; it was not named the National Socialist German's Worker Party for nothing.

They probably match progressivism more closely than any other North American ideology.

[NoRapture]

They probably match progressivism more closely than any other North American ideology.

Yeah. Progressivism with no human or individual rights. Oh, wait. That's the perfect definition for a Republican.

I assert that Third Reich Germans relinquished their political privileges the second they allowed Hitler to dismantle their legal, court, and justice system. Then they stood passively by, watched and allowed criminals to make a sick cult of their lives and government, their claim to a body politic became a pathetic joke to the rest of the world. I wonder if they'd have joined forums like this to earnestly argue national values while their country cooked Jews and confiscated their property all over Europe? Guess we'll never know for sure. But modest perusal of their newspapers and periodicals shows they joined in the same kind of blindered denial of reality that we do today, while we corrupt, torture, and kill Iraqis for their oil.

[Manuel]

Was this entire thread just an excuse to make a Republican-Nazi comparison?

[NoRapture]

Was this entire thread just an excuse to make a Republican-Nazi comparison?

No. But it was an attempt to show similarities in political climate of nations who become rogue states. It was an attempt to show that after your country breaks the laws of common humanity, politics no longer mean jack shit. And it was an attempt to show that much weightier and more honest discussions are going to be necessary to save our own very fucked up, and criminally controlled nation.

[Manuel]

How? You were obviously expecting a "They were just like Republicans" answer. When you didn't recieve it, you made your claim anyway.

[NoRapture]

You were obviously expecting a "They were just like Republicans" answer. When you didn't recieve it, you made your claim anyway.

No. It was Dan who claimed a contemporary political location for 3rd Reich Germans. Progressive. I simply responded in kind. Which is usually all he deserves.

But my point is that the political climate of Nazi Germany made not one whit of difference in the outcome of history after Hitler began doing away with the pillars of German government, judicial system, parliamentary process, freedom of press and ideas, and military separation. Germans either didn't recognize what was happening, ignored it, denied it, or liked and benefitted from it. It no longer mattered whether they fancied themselves stiff, Weimar conservatives, young hungry businessmen, or liberal, educated men of science. They had over ten years to recognize the glaring evil as it festered around them and they did nothing. If you see no similarities as you coexist today with institutionalized torture, secret warrantless imprisonment, comprehensive, secret civilian, government surveillance, and corporately facilitated, preemptive war, bombing, and invasion resulting in the murders of hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians, all on the word of one or two men in an office of our government, it has nothing to do with your politics I assure you.

Multitudes of both Democrats and Republicans today lie snoring at every level of society, more interested in stories of child molestation, the pregnancies of Hollywood stars, and elections posed to them as reality TV gamesmanship, than the stories that their international policies result in, in the Middle East, Africa, China, and Central and South America.

Owning an internet service and a laptop with access to more than the overwhelmingly loud voice of corporate broadcast "news" only means something if you can put together your illusive snippets of truth, see a whole picture, and take some sort of action to help repair the growing damage.

[KurtFF8]

Hitler engaged in massive public works projects, and many of his programs can be described as far-left.

Irrelevant, public works programs were also being invented on a mass scale in the United States at the time, and while FDR may be seen as "left" compared to the average American politician who is pretty far to the right, the policies were certainly put in place for the interests of the Capitalists.

A lot of the Nazi's program was full on socialism.

The Nazi's used a lot of socialist rhetoric to gain support from the already popular socialist movement of the time. Their actual ideology (which had many inconsistencies by the way, it's hard to pinpoint exactly what they were) was very pro-property. They believed in preserving private property, only not through a non-state interventionist strategy of course (as was pointed out by their major support for corporations).

While not perhaps as far-left as Falange, Fascist, or Integralist programs in practice [theory-wise Strasserism is nearly identical to these, with an anti-Jewish bias], the fact remains that the Nazi Party preached and practiced far to the left of today's Democrats.

Fascism is also not a left ideology economically. Unless any type of state intervention into the economy is consider left wing, which is of course a very "libertarian-centric" view of the left right dichotomy (which is of course an oversimplified false dichotomy).

As a matter of fact this false dichotomy is the biggest problem of this thread and is being highlighted in the most famous examples of how it is a false dichotomy. The left/right divide is oversimplified and doesn't take many factors into account or at least skews ideologies and categorizes them in an odd way.

[Manuel]

Fascism is also not a left ideology economically. Unless any type of state intervention into the economy is consider left wing, which is of course a very "libertarian-centric" view of the left right dichotomy (which is of course an oversimplified false dichotomy).

I stated in my first post I was working off the Political Compass dichotomy, for the sake of simplicity, as the question itself asked how Nazism compared to Republicanism within this scope.

Fascism, and corporatism, are not left-wing ideologies. Correct. Their defense of the class structure, and the sancity of private property within the scope of collective interests, garauntees this.

[Dr House]

Fascism is also not a left ideology economically. Unless any type of state intervention into the economy is consider left wing, which is of course a very "libertarian-centric" view of the left right dichotomy (which is of course an oversimplified false dichotomy).

That's what I said and everybody ignored me.

[KurtFF8]

That's what I said and everybody ignored me.

Maybe I just said it better

I stated in my first post I was working off the Political Compass dichotomy, for the sake of simplicity, as the question itself asked how Nazism compared to Republicanism within this scope.

Well if you recognize that it is a false dichotomy, then isn't the conclusion quite irrelevant?

Any way I think that fascism and Nazism are intuitively to the right of the political spectrum if we're using the simplified one, and that seems to be the commonly accepted placement for them. But does it really matter?