[Ixa]

The Greeks had a technological sophistication far beyond anything heretofore imagined.

Enigma Of Ancient World’s Computer Is Cracked At Last

Agence France Presse, Nov. 29, 2006



The 2100-year-old clockwork miracle.

A 2,100-year-old clockwork machine whose remains were retrieved from a shipwreck more than a century ago has turned out to be the celestial super-computer of the ancient world.

Using 21st-century technology to peer beneath the surface of the encrusted gearwheels, stunned scientists say the so-called Antikythera Mechanism could predict the ballet of the Sun and Moon over decades and calculate a lunar anomaly that would bedevil Isaac Newton himself.

Built in Greece around 150-100 BC and possibly linked to the astronomer and mathematician Hipparchos, its complexity was probably unrivalled for at least a thousand years, they say.

“It’s beautifully designed. Your jaw drops when you work out what they did and what they put into this,” said astronomer Mike Edmunds of Cardiff University, Wales, in an interview with AFP.

“It implies the Greeks had great technical sophistication.”

The Antikythera Mechanism is named after its place of discovery, where Greek divers, exploring a Roman shipwreck at a depth of 42 metres (136 feet) in 1901, came across 82 curious bronze fragments.

At first, these pieces, thickly encrusted and jammed together after lying more two millennia on the sea floor, lay forgotten. But a closer look showed them to be exquisitely made, hand-cut, toothed gearwheels.

It was clear that, within this find, 29 gearwheels fitted together, possibly making some sort of astronomical calendar. But of what, exactly?

For a quarter of a century, the textbook on the strange find was a work written by a historian of science and technology, Derek de Solla Price.

He hypothesised that the Mechanism in fact had 31 gearwheels, and did something pretty astonishing—it linked the solar year with a 19-year cycle in the phases of the Moon. This is the so-called Metonic cycle, which takes the Moon 235 lunar months to the same phase on the same date in the year.

Edmunds’ team, gathering experts from Britain, Greece and the United States, has now taken the tale several chapters forward.

In a paper published on Thursday in Nature, they describe how they used three-dimensional X-ray computation tomography and high-resolution surface imaging to peek beneath the Mechanism’s surface, yet without damaging the priceless artefact.

There, they read inscriptions on the bronze cogs that had been unseen by human eye since that Roman ship came to grief aeons before.

The original device, they believe, is likely to have comprised 37 gear-wheels and comprised two clock-like faces, one front and one back, which would have fitted into a slim wooden box measuring 31.5 x 19 cm (12.5 x 7.5 cm) and a thickness of 10cms (four inches).

The machine was a 365-day calendar, which ingeniously factored in the leap year every four years.

And it not only provided the Metonic cycle, which was known to the Babylonians, it also gave the so-called Callippic cycle, which is four Metonic cycles minus one day and reconciles the solar year with the lunar calendar.

It could also predict lunar and solar eclipses under the Saros cycle, a 223-month repetitive interplay of the Sun, Earth and Moon. This function, presumably, would been useful for religious purposes, given that eclipses are traditionally taken as omens.

The Machine was also a star almanac, showing the times when the major stars and constellations of the Greek zodiac would rise or set and, speculatively, may also have shown the positions of the planets.

But even more impressive is a tiny pin-and-slot device that factors in a movement of the Moon that, for centuries, puzzled sky-watchers.

In this so-called main lunar anomaly, the Moon appears to move across the heavens at different speeds at different times—the reason being its elliptical orbit around Earth.

“Newton used to say he would think about this until his head hurt,” notes Edmunds, wryly.

This latter discovery prompts the scientists to wonder if the great Hipparchos, who drew up the first catalogue of the stars and wrote about the lunar anomaly in the 2nd century BC, may have had a hand in designing the Mechanism.

Adding circumstantial evidence to this theory is that the shipwreck was found to have jars and coins from Rhodes, where Hipparchos lived.

The computer is so advanced in its mathematics and technology that the history of ancient Greece may have to be rewritten, contends Edmunds.

“We now must ask: What else could they do? That’s a difficult thing, because this is really the only surviving metallic artefact of its kind. Who knows what else may be lost?”

It was not until the end of the first millennium AD and the golden age of Islamic science that anything so technologically wondrous surfaced again, if the archaeological evidence is a guide.

This was an eight-geared astrolabe, depicting the movements of the Sun and Earth, by the Islamic astronomer al-Biruni in AD 996.

Had the Greeks’ knowledge somehow survived and been transmitted across the centuries, to inspire al-Biruni? Or had it withered away and disappeared, leaving Islamic scholars with the task of rediscovering what had been known a thousand years before?

http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/20 ... _ancie.php

[MB.]

Had the Greeks’ knowledge somehow survived and been transmitted across the centuries, to inspire al-Biruni?

Gee, I dunno.... maybe?

This article is hardly new news.

The computer is so advanced in its mathematics and technology that the history of ancient Greece may have to be rewritten, contends Edmunds.

In his publishing dreams. The Mechanism isn't important because of the accuracy of its predictions (we've always known the Greeks had improved upon Babylonian predictions vastly), but because of the fact that it proves that a mechanical tradition existed in ancient Greece. Which, again, we've known since the devices discovery over a hundred years ago.

Nothing new here...

[Unperson-S]

This article is hardly new news.

Your right, some could say its history

/lamejoke

I think this is quite interesting, and maybe if this technology had of survived, our world would be quite different now.

[MB.]

our world would be quite different now.

I don't follow this logic.

Simple machines based on gears have been in existance for countless millennium.

[Captain Hat]

Granted, its not news, but its fascinating none the less.

The Ancient Greeks aren't known (popularly at least) for their mechanical expertise. Although, now that I've written that, I thought of Archimedes (sp?) who was very mechanically minded.

Alright, then. This mechanism doesn't prove anything as much as it affirms.

[Thunderhawk]

This recent set of Xrays and scans is news to me. Knowledge of the device and its predicted use is old - it is history after all.


Though it does remind me of Rome and Christianity's non-creative habits.

[Zagadka]

There's nothing that stopped the ancients from developing the technology we had today. Just a few chance moments led to the Industrial Revolution in Europe. thousands of years before, Greeks and Romans had experiments with steam engines, electrical power - including batteries -... chemistry... just a few of those items getting done right unlocked the chain for others to follow. The Chinese and Arabs were far more advanced than Europe for a long time - they just never had the chance that Europe did, with large amounts of lumber, coal, iron, dense population, plentiful aqua-ways...

[Attila The Nun]

“We now must ask: What else could they do? That’s a difficult thing, because this is really the only surviving metallic artefact of its kind. Who knows what else may be lost?”

And this is a question that will indeed plague Ancient historians for all time. There is so much we will never know.

And while this itself isn't new news, it is still important. It appears that speculation that the Antikythera mechanism being a device used to measure the movement of the heavens is correct after all. Not exactly groundbreaking, but it is a testament to the Greeks' prowess in mathematics and engineers, as well as astronomy, certainly one of the best examples of the fine Hellenistic tradition of science and technology. It is devices like these which shatter the arrogance of modern science and point out just how close people living 2000 years ago were so close to us.

[MB.]

It is devices like these which shatter the arrogance of modern science and point out just how close people living 2000 years ago were so close to us.

I disagree completely. Sure the ancients may have held some ideas which were superficially similar to those we hold today, but that can be explained away as simply being part of the shared human experience- which, naturally- doesn't change despite the passing of millenia. On the other hand, their understanding of how the world actually worked was totaly and utterly inferior to the modern view, based on empiricism and the gathering of observations.

The Greeks weren't actually interested in how the world works, they were interested in creating models to replicate its functions. Thus, while Ptolomey's solar model is clearly incorrect in its fundamentals, the accuracy of its model is striking. Does this mean the ancients understood how gravity and forces of attraction worked? No. Does it mean they were good at making models of things? Yes.

My point being, today the focus of our society is geared in a completely different direction, one fundamentally at odds with the ancient frame of mind. The debate between the supporters of Democraties and Aristotle over the existence of a void is a classic example.

[Attila The Nun]

I disagree completely. Sure the ancients may have held some ideas which were superficially similar to those we hold today, but that can be explained away as simply being part of the shared human experience- which, naturally- doesn't change despite the passing of millenia. On the other hand, their understanding of how the world actually worked was totaly and utterly inferior to the modern view, based on empiricism and the gathering of observations.

The Greeks weren't actually interested in how the world works, they were interested in creating models to replicate its functions. Thus, while Ptolomey's solar model is clearly incorrect in its fundamentals, the accuracy of its model is striking. Does this mean the ancients understood how gravity and forces of attraction worked? No. Does it mean they were good at making models of things? Yes.

My point being, today the focus of our society is geared in a completely different direction, one fundamentally at odds with the ancient frame of mind. The debate between the supporters of Democraties and Aristotle over the existence of a void is a classic example.

Were there differences? Of course. Some scientific and technological advances were done for different reasons, but I most definitely think there was an intellectual curiousity, especially when you look at the fields of mechanics. Philosophers aside, you tell me that Archimedes had no intellectual curiousity. That's the only way how you make the advances they did.

And I love how you belittle their achievements so, like anyone could do what they did. The advances of the Greeks was not something to be light of, and I would certainly call their advances to be akin to the 19th century technology. It's easy to make light of the Ancient world achievements when comparing them to the 21st century, but compared to the notions that people have of guys walking around in togas sacrificing virgins to their gods while living in mud huts, it's amazing how much they actually accomplished.

[MB.]

And I love how you belittle their achievements so, like anyone could do what they did. The advances of the Greeks was not something to be light of, and I would certainly call their advances to be akin to the 19th century technology

This is what David Pingree called "Hellenophilia".

"A Hellenophile suffers from a form of madness that blinds him or her to historical truth and creates int he imagination the idea that one of several false propositions is true. The fist of these is that the Greeks invented science; the second is that they discovered a way to truth, the scientific method, that we are now successfully following; the third is that only real sciences are those that began in Greece; and the fourth (and the last?) is that the true definition of science is just that which scientists happen to be doing now, following a method or methods adumbrated by the Greeks, but never fully understood or utilized by them."

He goes on the describe the origins of astronomical science,

"early man had little interest in the stars before the end of the third millennium B.C, the cataloging of stars and the recording of stellar and planetary phenomena are not a natural, but a learned activity that needs a motivation such ass that which inspired the Babylonians.... The earliest traces of knowledge of astronomy in Greece and India seem to be derived, in the early first millennium BC from Mesopotamia.... From the written evidence, then, it appears that an interset in the stars as omens arose in Mesopotamia after 2000 B.C. and started to develop toward mathematical astronomy in about 1200 BC but that the Babylonians began to invent mathematical models useful for the prediction of celestial phenomena with some degree of accuracy only in about 500 BC."

The Greeks then simply expressed the same information "with a strong prejudice in favor of circles or spheres" as geometrical models.

you tell me that Archimedes had no intellectual curiousity

Where, exactly, did I say that?

Some scientific and technological advances were done for different reasons, but I most definitely think there was an intellectual curiousity

As I stated,

Sure the ancients may have held some ideas which were superficially similar to those we hold today, but that can be explained away as simply being part of the shared human experience

Both the Ancients and the moderns possessed "intellectual curiosity," but for different ends.

You stated that

It is devices like these which shatter the arrogance of modern science and point out just how close people living 2000 years ago were so close to us.

And I disagree vehemently, since comparing the achievements of the Greeks to those of the modernists is like comparing apples and oranges. There is no comparison.

The Greeks didn't build the Device in question so they could objectively measure the concept of a mechanical philosophy. They built it so they could predict stellar positions, probably for the purposes of divination or horoscope predictions.

Just because they used gears doesn't make the device "an ancient computer" as the author of the report above suggests.

[Attila The Nun]

The Greeks then simply expressed the same information "with a strong prejudice in favor of circles or spheres" as geometrical models.

The atomic theory was first thought up by Dalton. All other scientists who perfected the atomic model are irrelevent.

The Greeks did not create science, nor mathematics, nor engineering, but they certainly brought it to levels unseen before.

Where, exactly, did I say that?

The Greeks weren't actually interested in how the world works

Archimedes is an example. Lived in Syracuse, was interested in how the world worked.

Both the Ancients and the moderns possessed "intellectual curiosity," but for different ends.

So you can ascribe all discoveries by the Greeks to religious purposes?

The Greeks didn't build the Device in question so they could objectively measure the concept of a mechanical philosophy. They built it so they could predict stellar positions, probably for the purposes of divination or horoscope predictions.

Let's say for instance that you are correct. The device's purpose is meaningless. But to build a device would require knowledge of astronomy beyond anyone preceding it, and even if it were, could the Babylonians build a device so advanced that it has been called the first computer ever made? So you see the real importance of the device, what it means mainly in the case of engineering.

How can you not grasp what the building of a complex machine means for the technical advancement of the Ancients? Even if it was a invention long in the making, it still says quite a bit about the technological advanced state of engineering and astronomy, regardless of whether this was due to a certain civilization or not.

Just because they used gears doesn't make the device "an ancient computer" as the author of the report above suggests.

"An analog computer is a form of computer that uses electrical or mechanical phenomena to model the problem being solved, or more generally by using one kind of physical quantity to represent another." -Wikipedia