[Paradigm]

Many biblical scholars doubt it, even going so far as to say Moses never existed. Others say that it was a gradual migration of people from Egypt to Canaan that got blown up into an epic over time. Very few outside of fundamentalist circles now believe that it happened as the Bible says. So what do you think happened? Was there some historical basis? It seems to me that something must have happened which forever shaped the identity of the Jewish people.

[Oxymoron]

In my opinion, something real did influence this story. Obviously without the whole magical episodes.
Most likely the Hebrews moved out freely, after Egypt exprienced a lot of natural and manmade disasters.

[babilonian]

we only know one thing for sure.

old books going back to thousands of years wrote about it. Just like we may write things about egyptians now, but it might have been different back then. Torah/Bible/Quran writes things that happened in the past. Stories for the people.

[MB.]

The only source is the old testament and that 'source' is pretty suspect so I'll go with a No.

[Fasces]

Something likely inspired it, though not on the same scale.

[babilonian]

Egyptians were good at propaganda. History has proven that already. So its hard for the Egyptians to say "a man from the desert, almost destroyed our civilization". Don't you find it awkward that the story of Moses was never mentioned in Egypt? The way I look at it, is how the hell is an Empire like the Egyptian one would mension such a story.

They clearly lied when it came to other Empires. They depict Ramesses winning the war against the Hittites. When in reality, they agreed to a peace treaty. This treaty was found in present day Turkey written in the diplomatic language of the time, Babylonian. Nothing of this sort was found in Egypt. All this ancient stuff in Egypt and yet not a single fact to prove this treaty from Egyptian side, but countless sources showing Ramesses winning the war.

[Oxymoron]

How would slaves have so many resources? Jews left Egypt with lots of livestock, equipment and Gold how is that possible? This story has some basis but we dont know alot of details of what actually took place. There is evidence that Jews in fact were not slaves but rather living in Egypt and making a nice living, and left with out conflict due to economic or political reasons.

[Godstud]

I think Moses did exist and the Exodus really did happen although I am sure the miraculous occurrences could be explained scientifically or that they were exaggerations.
Many things written in the bible have been found to be true and I think that the bible was not only a holy book but also a way of recording their history. I've seen a show recently on this but can't remember it's name. I saw it on the History channel and it seemed as though the scientists had a good handle on what parts of the bible were myth and which appeared to be fact.

[babilonian]

Jews were not slaves in Egypt. That has already been established. But persecution and slavery are two different things. As to the amounts of gold they had, historians say that a civil war broke out between those who worshiped Egyptian Gods and the ONE GOD. It seems that there was a lot of looting in this civil disturbance. This is why the Egyptians didn't allow them to leave. They wanted them to leave without anything. Considering the Egyptians kept a good record of who lives with them. They new that the Hebrews came to Egypt with almost nothing. So they wanted them to leave with nothing too. My gess is that the Hebrews looted as much as possible before they left.

Now this is not because they are thieves, but as a payback for the persecution they endured on the hands of the Egyptians.

[babilonian]

Science and religion don't always cross roads. There is a thing in religion called "miracle". This term is for something that can not be explained scientifically. Although people always think that there must be a scientific explanation for everything, it might be almost impossible to know now as its been thousands of years.

Jesus cured the blind. That is a miracle. Moses made the sea split. That is a miracle. Daniel was thrown into the fire. And so on...

Although me might be able to study such acts now if it were to happen and be able to give an explanation, but its highly unlikely that we can answer how a blind man was able to see or how a tsunami would happen at a man's request.

[Oxymoron]

Jews were not slaves in Egypt. That has already been established. But persecution and slavery are two different things. As to the amounts of gold they had, historians say that a civil war broke out between those who worshiped Egyptian Gods and the ONE GOD. It seems that there was a lot of looting in this civil disturbance. This is why the Egyptians didn't allow them to leave. They wanted them to leave without anything. Considering the Egyptians kept a good record of who lives with them. They new that the Hebrews came to Egypt with almost nothing. So they wanted them to leave with nothing too. My gess is that the Hebrews looted as much as possible before they left

.

Evidence for civil war is lacking, and Jews didnt come to Egypt with nothing. The tribes were very rich with livestock which they took with them at the invitation of Joseph. Also many that left with Moses did not believe in one god as was proven by the Golden Calf.

[Potemkin]

Evidence for civil war is lacking, and Jews didnt come to Egypt with nothing. The tribes were very rich with livestock which they took with them at the invitation of Joseph. Also many that left with Moses did not believe in one god as was proven by the Golden Calf.

Indeed. What is remarkable about the ancient Israelites was how weak their faith in monotheism actually was. Moses and the prophets faced an uphill struggle just to prevent the worship of Yahweh from being overwhelmed altogether by pagan cults. They had to resort to the most brutal methods of coercion on occasion.

[babilonian]

Evidence for civil war is lacking, and Jews didn't come to Egypt with nothing. The tribes were very rich with livestock which they took with them at the invitation of Joseph. Also many that left with Moses did not believe in one god as was proven by the Golden Calf.

Evidence of civil war is present in Egypt and the Egyptians documented all their civil disturbances. At one point, the south rebelled to the point were all the empire was about to collapse because of it.

When the Hebrews came to Egypt during Joseph times, they were exhausted. Had very little food and money. That is the reason why they came to Egypt wasn't it? So the idea that they came to Egypt as rich people is not true. If you want to test this theory, you can go and live with the Bedouins for a month or so and see how they stock their food. Its almost impossible for people to live in tents and be able to store large amounts of food. At that time, they Hebrews were nomads, Bedouins, moved from one place to another to feed their stock.

As for the people that left with Moses, they were ALL Hebrews. But not all Hebrews believe in ONE GOD do they? Not all Israeli's are Jews now and there are many who are atheists. Same back then.
The bull was made not taken with them from Egypt. Moses would've never accepted an Egyptian or a pagan God taken with him on the exodus. And because of this act, making the bull, he ordered the slaughter of many Hebrews. When they refused his command, he ordered the Levites to carry it out, ordering them to kill even family members who joined in this act.

That is not brutality, but purification. These people left Egypt and witnessed one miracle after the other and yet still chose to worship a bull, they don't deserve GOD's mercy.

[Paradigm]

Indeed. What is remarkable about the ancient Israelites was how weak their faith in monotheism actually was. Moses and the prophets faced an uphill struggle just to prevent the worship of Yahweh from being overwhelmed altogether by pagan cults. They had to resort to the most brutal methods of coercion on occasion.

According to a book I'm reading right now, the Israelites at the time of the Exodus were not monotheist. They were monolatrists at best, and only became monotheist during the Babylonian exile.

[Potemkin]

According to a book I'm reading right now, the Israelites at the time of the Exodus were not monotheist. They were monolatrists at best, and only became monotheist during the Babylonian exile.

That sounds plausible. After all, most of the Scriptures were compiled during the Babylonian exile. The exile probably gave the Israelites a period during which they could look at their own history and culture from the outside, as it were, and decide what it all meant and which parts were worth preserving and which were not.

[babilonian]

We should agree on certain parts of this topic. Abraham left Ur because he wanted to worship ONE GOD and make his own nation. The reason why the Israelites didn't always follow closely is because they were poor among rich nations and Empires. If they have had listened to Abraham and all the Prophets and followed, they would've been better off. But they always rebelled and broke commands.

So to say that the Israelites were not monotheists until they went to Babylon, is not correct. However, like i mentioned, its very much like today, you have Jews who don't believe exactly as their fellow Jews. Some might be extreme in following the Torah, some might look at it as a children's stories. Some might not even believe in God, yet they still consider themselves Jews or Hebrews.

A new Moses would put an end to it. Jesus had the same issues with the Jews. What he considered breaking of Torah laws, they saw it as something normal.

[Oxymoron]

Evidence of civil war is present in Egypt and the Egyptians documented all their civil disturbances. At one point, the south rebelled to the point were all the empire was about to collapse because of it.

What does that ave to do with Jews? That rebelion brought the Nubians to power not the Jews.

When the Hebrews came to Egypt during Joseph times, they were exhausted. Had very little food and money. That is the reason why they came to Egypt wasn't it?

No they came to Egypt because they were promised good lands and opportunities. They were not poor.

So the idea that they came to Egypt as rich people is not true. If you want to test this theory, you can go and live with the Bedouins for a month or so and see how they stock their food. Its almost impossible for people to live in tents and be able to store large amounts of food. At that time, they Hebrews were nomads, Bedouins, moved from one place to another to feed their stock.

At that time most peoples lived as nomads in the region, and the Hebrews were very well supplied nomads.

As for the people that left with Moses, they were ALL Hebrews.

False, remember that Abraham had some outside the marriage relations with an servant girl who begot him a son and she was not Hebrew.

But not all Hebrews believe in ONE GOD do they? Not all Israeli's are Jews now and there are many who are atheists. Same back then.

Athiest? No one was athiest.

The bull was made not taken with them from Egypt. Moses would've never accepted an Egyptian or a pagan God taken with him on the exodus. And because of this act, making the bull, he ordered the slaughter of many Hebrews. When they refused his command, he ordered the Levites to carry it out, ordering them to kill even family members who joined in this act

.

Your point being?

That is not brutality, but purification. These people left Egypt and witnessed one miracle after the other and yet still chose to worship a bull, they don't deserve GOD's mercy.

Fuck that shit, total BS.
Settle down please - SD

[Paradigm]

That sounds plausible. After all, most of the Scriptures were compiled during the Babylonian exile. The exile probably gave the Israelites a period during which they could look at their own history and culture from the outside, as it were, and decide what it all meant and which parts were worth preserving and which were not.

According to this book, the exile also posed a theological problem for them which they resolved through monotheism. According to the theological traditions of the time, the Babylonians conquering Israel would have signified that the Babylonian gods were greater than the god of the Israelites. They couldn't live with such humiliating connotations, so they conceived of their god as being not only god of their people but God of all creation, as much in control of the Babylonians as of them. Thus, this exile was part of God's greater plan, and they would soon be freed. This latter part proved accurate, as they would be liberated by the Persians shortly thereafter. The Zoroastrian religion of the Persians would have likely reinforced their monotheism.

[babilonian]

What does that ave to do with Jews? That rebelion brought the Nubians to power not the Jews.

I was not talking about that revolt. With in the past year, new evidence was unearthed regarding a revolt by "people that worshiped one god". as the egyptians said. If i come across this on the net, i'll send a link.

No they came to Egypt because they were promised good lands and opportunities. They were not poor.

No need to take things personal, its just history. Have you read the story of Joseph? Jacob didn't send his sons to Egypt because they were rich. He sent them to buy food. Food which they didn't have. They did have money to trade for, but not Food. Food to feed themselves and their livestock. And if good land is in Egypt, why then your land is considered the land of "milk and honey". What makes it more special than Egypt.

At that time most peoples lived as nomads in the region, and the Hebrews were very well supplied nomads.

All nomads are well supplied. Untill this day.

False, remember that Abraham had some outside the marriage relations with an servant girl who begot him a son and she was not Hebrew.

I was talking about Moses, not Abraham. Hagar and Ishmael lived in Arabia at the time. And here you go agian with your Jewish thinking, servant girl? was she serving him in bed? Is that what Prophets do?

Fuck that shit, total BS.

Thats your religion

[Oxymoron]

was not talking about that revolt. With in the past year, new evidence was unearthed regarding a revolt by "people that worshiped one god". as the egyptians said. If i come across this on the net, i'll send a link.

Please do.

No need to take things personal, its just history. Have you read the story of Joseph? Jacob didn't send his sons to Egypt because they were rich. He sent them to buy food. Food which they didn't have. They did have money to trade for, but not Food. Food to feed themselves and their livestock. And if good land is in Egypt, why then your land is considered the land of "milk and honey". What makes it more special than Egypt

.

I am not taking anything personally. I did read the story, and obviously Egypt was richer then the Hebrews, but obviously they had something to trade so they werent that poor, nor did they enter Egypt with nothing. Israel was milk and honey in the spiritual sense.

All nomads are well supplied. Untill this day.

Ok so you agree that they entered Egypt not empty handed.

Code: Select allI was talking about Moses, not Abraham. Hagar and Ishmael lived in Arabia at the time. And here you go agian with your Jewish thinking, servant girl? was she serving him in bed? Is that what Prophets do?

I know who you were talking about, I was simply pointing out that the Hebrew tribe had other ethinic groups attached to it.
My Jewish thinking? Please elaborate what this Jewish thinking is?

Thats your religion

No That is not my religion.