[QatzelOk]

We have a gay Muslim who doesn't believe in a whole chapter in the Quran that talks about Marry and the miraculous birth of Jesus.

She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!

I don't know why the word "Allah" is used in the English translation. This seems like either sloppy branding or unrepentant ethnocentrism. But in any case, the story is about Mary not understanding how nature works, and has nothing to do with magical pregnancy.

Real religion means you have to have a personal relationship with these texts. You can't just accept the conventionally shared misinterpretations of them.

[Huntster]

But in any case, the story is about Mary not understanding how nature works, and has nothing to do with magical pregnancy.

It was not magic:

–noun
1. the art of producing illusions as entertainment by the use of sleight of hand, deceptive devices, etc.; legerdemain; conjuring: to pull a rabbit out of a hat by magic.
2. the art of producing a desired effect or result through the use of incantation or various other techniques that presumably assure human control of supernatural agencies or the forces of nature. Compare contagious magic, imitative magic, sympathetic magic.
3. the use of this art: Magic, it was believed, could drive illness from the body.
4. the effects produced: the magic of recovery.
5. power or influence exerted through this art: a wizard of great magic.

It was a miracle:

–noun
1. an effect or extraordinary event in the physical world that surpasses all known human or natural powers and is ascribed to a supernatural cause.
2. such an effect or event manifesting or considered as a work of God.
3. a wonder; marvel.
4. a wonderful or surpassing example of some quality: a miracle of modern acoustics.

And it was foretold 700 years before:

Therefore the Lord himself will give you this sign: the virgin shall be with child, and bear a son, and shall name him Immanuel.

[Wolfman]

All religion is evil, and people who actually fight and lose there tempers over something that is probably 100% made up have problems.

I think everyone needs to take a nice deep breath.

[Nets]

^ So you believe all those people were made up or what?

We have a gay Muslim who doesn't believe in a whole chapter in the Quran that talks about Marry and the miraculous birth of Jesus. And a Zionist Jew who doesn't believe in any of the Prophets of Judaism, but the Jewish home part of Israel.

Not all, but some. I consider the forefathers to likely be made up as part of the national mythology, same with Moses, Joshua, etc. most likely.

On the other hand I think people like King David, King Solomon, Judah Macabee, etc. were all very real.

It is always hard to explain to be people, but I am an observant Jew but not a religious one if that makes any sense. I don't believe that the scriptures were written by God as history, but are possibly divinely inspired allegories.

[QatzelOk]

1. an effect or extraordinary event in the physical world that surpasses all known human or natural powers and is ascribed to a supernatural cause.
2. such an effect or event manifesting or considered as a work of God.
3. a wonder; marvel.
4. a wonderful or surpassing example of some quality: a miracle of modern acoustics.

1. an effect or extraordinary event in the physical world that surpasses all known human or natural powers and is ascribed to a supernatural cause.
The event only has to surpass the known powers of the audience for it to be considered "a miracle." A magician can easily provide the illusion of a miracle. And a scribe - particularly a cult-centred scribe - can "ascribe" it to "God." This allows people with a perception advantage to pass themselves off as gods.

a wonder; marvel.
This is so broad that sugarless gum could be considered a miracle.

[Huntster]

Faith:

–noun
1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.
6. the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc.: Failure to appear would be breaking faith.
7. the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath, allegiance, etc.: He was the only one who proved his faith during our recent troubles.
8. Christian Theology. the trust in God and in His promises as made through Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved.

You have not been chosen, Qatz. We who have been chosen listen to Him. Those of you who have not been chosen still seek answers.

And you will not find them.

But there are some of you who do not believe." Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him. And he said, "For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father."

As a result of this, many of his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.

Jesus then said to the Twelve, "Do you also want to leave?" Simon Peter answered him, "Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. We have come to believe and are convinced that you are the Holy One of God."

[QatzelOk]

You have not been chosen, Qatz. We who have been chosen listen to Him.

So the "listening to dead people society" is an elite group, is it?

[Huntster]

So the "listening to dead people society" is an elite group, is it?

Yup.

[QatzelOk]

What about listening to "alive people?"

Or listening to your own instincts?

Any word on listening to the non-dead?

[babilonian]

Qatz:

But in any case, the story is about Mary not understanding how nature works, and has nothing to do with magical pregnancy.

Which part of nature did she not understand? You have a way of interpreting text as I see. It takes man+women=baby. Simple. Have not changed since the beginning of time. To me, it seems like she understands how nature works very well. Her question was legit.

[QatzelOk]

Mary was probably some country bumpkin who got herself pregnant while drunk, or before she even knew what causes pregnancy.

Or maybe Joseph came all over her blanket while jerking off, and it got inside her while she slept.

Believing in miracles always leads to environmental collapse so try to grow up.

[telluro]

And is one of the reasons i will never be a part of this evil religion, I will remain a proud pagan. No gods who are genocidal, serial rapists, teach that child brides are a good thing, and so on.......

That's silly, sorry.

First of all there's nothing to say that Yahweh is not essentially a pagan god. We tend to differentiate merely because the Yahweh religion produced Christianity and Islam. Secondly, all pagan gods I can think of were inhumane and immoral by today's liberal crypto-Christian standards. Yes, they killed on a whim, and raped, and participated in what we'd think of as child-sex.

Neo-"pagans" these days. Their religion in essence is truly Christianity, with all its morals and baggage of good and evil. It's just the names of the gods and rituals they change.

[ninurta]

[]And is one of the reasons i will never be a part of this evil religion, I will remain a proud pagan. No gods who are genocidal, serial rapists, teach that child brides are a good thing, and so on.......[]
That's silly, sorry.

First of all there's nothing to say that Yahweh is not essentially a pagan god.

Never said he was. I said my gods were.

We tend to differentiate merely because the Yahweh religion produced Christianity and Islam. Secondly, all pagan gods I can think of were inhumane and immoral by today's liberal crypto-Christian standards. Yes, they killed on a whim, and raped, and participated in what we'd think of as child-sex.

No they all didn't. Not my gods. And aside from not viewing homosexuality as a sin, aside from that, there isn't much.

Neo-"pagans" these days. Their religion in essence is truly Christianity, with all its morals and baggage of good and evil. It's just the names of the gods and rituals they change.

My religion is not truly christianity, I know its hard to grasp, I don't believe in Yahweh. Why do you think my beliefa are in essence christianity?

[MB.]

This thread does not belong in the history section since the characters of mary and jesus are fictional, ie, not real.

[Smilin' Dave]

I was under the impression that Roman records confirmed that Jesus, or someone like him, was in fact real?

[MB.]

Na there is no evidence whatsoever.

Pontious Pilot, Jesus, John, mary etc etc all made up fake not real.

That said, there are countless historians who have treated and continue to treat the jesus saga as historical (so I'm not opposed to its discussion, of course), however I get the feeling this is done (or has been done) for reasons of orthodoxy, personal conviction, or simply attempts (certainly worthy attempts, mind you) at being holistic.

But yah it's not real.

[Smilin' Dave]

Well I looked it up and there is a little bit of evidence for Jesus:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicit ... an_sources

He probably isn't the Jesus remembered in the bible, but I'm pretty sure there was someone there.

[MB.]

Ugh. Josephus was a [check; Jewish] apologist, the rest of those sources mention Christians or Christ in passing, without any reference to evidence. Suetonius, who I've read cover to cover, never mentions anything about the christ story beyond the fact that there was a christian religion.

I think you'd get more from this link, Dave.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Chri ... _mythology

An enlightening text to consider is Strauss' Life of Jesus

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/s ... dex-2.html

Much of it available there.

[Brio]

How is Pontius Pilate not a real person? He is mentioned by the Roman historian Tactius as well as the Jewish historian Josephus. Physical evidence of Pilate has also been discovered in 1961, when a limestone tablet was unearthed in Caesarea. This tablet was a dedication by Pilate of a tiberieum to the deified Augustus and in it it states that Pilate is the prefect/governor of Judaea. It has been dated to between 26 to 37 AD.

Whether Pilate participated in the events told in the Gospels is another matter entirely, but denying that Pilate never existed is a false assumption.

[MB.]

I would be willing to discuss the historicity of the pontii in greater detail.

I would also be wary of accepting as fact stone inscriptions found in the '60s.